Forum:Vault/Nukapedia

What is the official policy towards each other? I see they copied F:NV endings, get also boxes from some admin (Porter right?). Now I see Ant who copied one article to us. What's the point in having separate wiki with copying here and here? --Languorous_Maiar 18:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that the policy is as long as you credit the appropriate sources its ok.--Ant2242 00:26, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is that we're the best and they're the rest. :P
 * Doesn't matter what information is where, so long as it's right. They can keep their little newsletter and Deadliest Warrior knockoff, they can have their still-oppressive Wikian masters. The Vault is about the information and we have a 'Let's not dick around' attitude because we've got Ausir and Porter and Tagz/Grizzly. Other than that, it's like asking the difference between NMA and DAC. :/ Nitty the Kitty! 01:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

You know, it's crap like this that keeps straining our relationship together. I want to make something abundantly clear here: Any of you can go through our history at Nukapedia and you all will see that we have never once bad-mouthed The Vault, and except for the incident with Broc and Gauzz, - Who have gone back to editing and all that at Nukapedia anyways. - we've never had any true issues with The Vault. Certain members here, however, cannot say the same. Ever since the split, all I've seen while I've visited here is enough badmouthing of Nukapedia to make me sick. Shall we go down the list?
 * We have been called a fake wiki that plagiarized The Vault's content. So let me get this straight: Ausir might have created The Vault in the first place, but The Vault became a community afterwords, and it's that community that poured their hearts into creating these two wiki's as they are now. Yeah, we had a split, and guess who took all of the wiki's information with them? Some of you guys here at The Vault. Information that was owned by the community at Wikia. Yes, Ausir technically owns The Vault, but not the information that was present at Wikia. Now, I'm not saying this was a bad thing, but I find it absolutely hypocritical of some of you to just sit there complaining about us stealing content when we've always asked if we could borrow content here. The only time information has ever been directly copied from here without permission is by newer members who don't know any better. Want to see proof of this? My example is Tag, when we asked him first if we could copy the concept art for F3 when we saw it had been uploaded here. He said no, that he'd feel better if we did things ourselves. So did we steal it? Hell no, we sat there for days manually adding them all ourselves. We respect The Vault's boundaries, and I'm really getting tired of us being badmouthed on this subject when I find it's The Vault that's taken content from our wiki without ever asking. I don't believe I've ever seen any of you here at The Vault once asking us to copy content over. So if anyone should be chastised here, it would be some of the editors here.
 * Don't even bring Porter into this. Yeah, we have a shortage of users that are tech savvy. So sue us and get off your damn high horse already. Porter just happens to be a friend to us still, (I hope so, at least.) and so he actually has the decency to help us whenever we're having a problem. That's what communities do, Help Each Other. So stop lording it over us just because we have to ask for help from time to time.
 * This one really bothered me. During the incident with Broc, he was essentially told that he had every right in the book to just blatantly copy over large chunks of information from Nukapedia to here, including one of our larger projects that we worked hard at. Did anyone ask if this was alright? No. Did anyone even think that maybe a source was required along with proper credit given? No. In this case, I'm glad that Ghost was around, as he actually went the extra mile to create your own unique project, instead of just being lazy and blatantly copying every last word over.
 * Another one that really really bothers me, but it's been getting better as of late, and now I hardly see any instances of this. I've seen quite a few admins from over here who sit around in chat berating Nukapedia and trying to divert users over here instead. Does anyone here not realize how rude that is? That's like having managers at your fast-food restaurant go to another restaurant with the specific purpose of bad-mouthing their bosses and handing them phamplets for your restaurant. It's improper etiquette, and it shows a lot of disrespect for us to try and reach-around our grasp to get at our community.
 * This one sorts of expands upon my first point. I keep seeing this term for Nukapedia going around, as us being a fake Vault. Not just by regular users, but from the Administration here themselves. Essentially, Nitty himself just said so here, which is what set me off to officially write about my concerns. I've seen many many other cases as well, but one off the top of my head would be this quote: I'll be moving along with the real Vault, and leaving this fake Vault behind. -- 07:52, December 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * This - "The second is that it would need to be at least psuedo-clandestine as I know for a fact that people at Nukapedia come over here to steal our ideas (not in a particularly harmful way), but if they catch on to what we are thinking, then they may do the same to make sure any advantage we try to conjure up. That rules out forum pages unfortunately, unless we are willing to brave it or to create an advantage that couldn't possibly be replicated - such as using Porter's wizardry or our extra freedom here at Curse." What? Seriously? What is wrong with some of you? Would some of you actually impede your own progression here because of some unjustified fear that evil little Nukapedia will come and steal everything? Go ahead and make my day. What ideas have we stolen from The Vault?
 * Inquisitor Ehrenstein - This user came here and blatantly proposed that he/she was to steal an entire wiki and transfer this over to the Curse variant. This met with no opposition until I stepped in and made a case on how this is not the choice of a single person to make, but the community at that wiki. In fact, I see the ball has already gone into motion here already, and after doing some research, I don't see any positive discussion on this at all from their community. So was this just done under the table or something? Since when is advocating such piracy a norm here? (If I'm wrong on this account, please let me know. But from I've been able to find, I don't see any proper measures being taken for this move.)
 * Maybe I'm missing a couple more things here, but I think I've made my point clear enough. Personally, I have no problems with any of you guys, and if we can't be of a single community, then I would at least hope we could be mutually beneficial friends. I have no problem with any one person here, as well, so don't think this was a personal attack on any specific one of you. It's just upsetting when we've been working so hard at keeping a decent relationship working between us, and then I get on here always seeing comments and discussions like this. Just please take our community into consideration instead of instantly assuming Nukapedia is underneath The Vault. Thank you for reading, and hopefully understanding. GarouxBloodline 06:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For the record, Leon, I haven't contributed to any of those perpetration you've posted above. I've never badmouthed Nukapedia (I think...) and I frequently exchange info for info on both wikis (with permission from the authors of the info). I realize your frustrations, but I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't use general terms like "you guys" or "all of you", (things that lump everyone into one group) as it gives us all a bad name when you have a problem with only a select few. In a way, it's like saying "all Muslims are terrorists"; it's just not true.
 * As for your sixth bullet, we're kind of forced to come up with non-replicable ways of improving The Vault because the site needs those innovative improvements in hopes of attracting more users/readers/whatever. Since using any well known search engine to search for 'fallout wiki' leads to Wikia's site first, then Curse's, the site loses out on a lot of visitors (as we all know, people using search engines usually only consider using the site at the top of the list, which is Nukapedia in this case). Now this normally wouldn't be a problem (in the grand scheme of things, both Nukapedia and The Vault are immensely insignificant), but we edit our sites because we want to have others read our words and our ideas (we certainly don't do it just for the hell of it or to waste time!); the site is here to help others by using its expansive library, but what good is it all if no one sees it? We resort to having to rely almost entirely one our innovations and just hoping the word spreads. --Kastera (talk) 07:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I appreciate you mentioning that to me, Kas. I will go through in just a second and replace those terms with something more appropriate to the situation at hand. Didn't mean to offend with that, I admit to sort of rushing my message here since I was planning on writing so much. As for my 6th bullet, I perfectly understand that. I really really do. I just didn't like how that conversation was going, along the lines of assumption stating that we'd just instantly stroll along and decide to take your changes for ourselves. I hope I'm making sense there. But I digress. You all have worked hard at making The Vault what is is now after the split, and myself and hopefully everyone else at Nukapedia want the best for you as well. (Especially when Fallout 4 comes out.) It just makes me sad when I see some of these things, and it makes me a lose a little faith each time on what sort of terms we'll be on when the next title comes out. The split certainly didn't help, but I'd like to think of us as still being a single community, like before. GarouxBloodline 07:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hm, it appears that we should all calm down for a second. I know after the split things haven't been the same. However, there is a diferrence with having an opinion and convincing others. As for the copyright, I thought that those who stated that they copied the content asked (I can only assume they did it via chat). However, I am not so much here around, but how is it you didn't ask us something? I can see that 400 pages you are missing. I know it is your concern which content to copy. Still... I don't see you asking anything to be copied, actually. I hope that at Nukapedia that our fellow users (or admins, as I only see them copying) to ask first. (Energy X as anon) 188.129.80.7 14:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * To address Languorous, I wish we'd still have one very strong wiki, instead of 2 seperate ones, but it was not to be unfortunately. Copying each others content was always going to be an issue after that, and till now we're handling it remarkably well I think. For instance I didn't copy those FNV endings images from here, but took them all myself from the unpacked FNV .esm file. Other than that I copied some content, but always credited it. Just plain taking it without credit is not right and people at Nukapedia know that too. And The Vault is doing the same I think, creating own content and crediting us if they use our stuff. So that's all good. But I didn't particularly like Nitty's comment making it look like we're inferior and Wikia's no good. After we had the Brocolli incident, as I remember it, GhostAvatar suggested we would respect each other and refrain from making these kind of badmouth comments. As you see now, it only leads to infuriation and detoriation of our relationship and we all don't want that I think. Jspoel

I'm rather disapointed by Nittys comments, but would like to say for the record I was at one point approached to bring "my little newsletter" here. Sadly time constraints have prevented me from doing so. Although I have in the past pointed out that under CC-BY-SA permission isnt strictly necessary, I have also said we should continue to talk before borrowing any content (and when it does happen to ensure that the CC-BY-SA requirements are met. As far as I'm concerned there is no more competition between us than there is with any other fallout site and would look at any request in the same light as any request from any other fallout site -NukaPedia included.  I'm sorry if some of you don't feel the same. Agent c 17:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't appreciate being a scapegoat, y'know. I mentioned that I genuinely didn't like the newsletter or the weekly polls or the Deadliest Warrior Pitt thing or even the naming-and-shaming permanent record thing that's in the works, as well as the lack of change on Wikia's staff's policies, nothing about piracy of information. I have a right to like one of the wikis over the other, and I don't understand how I, historically being one of the more blunt and less thought-provoking administrators, prompted this mass outpouring of drama over how much the sites hate each other. :/ Nitty the Kitty! 17:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I mentioned above in my original post, my frustration wasn't forged from any single person or incident. (I won't speak for anyone else though on their reasons for responding here.) So when taking my post into account, at least, don't consider yourself a scapegoat, but merely a catalyst. What's upset me is a lot of incidents happening over time. In any case though, I would like to ask of you not to take my words out of context. Nowhere did I state that we hate each other. I merely want all of this sneaky behaviour and badmouthing to stop. GarouxBloodline 18:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I can at least agree on stopping the sneaky behavior. The whole split looks like it's turning both wikis into police-state internet fiefdoms. :L Nitty the Kitty! 18:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Im sorry if you feel like you're being scapegoated Nitty, and I'm sorry for any offence caused. However I think some of Wikias policies have changed - they took our negative reaction to the video rail quite well, and I've found the folks at wikia games quite helpful. Sorry to hear you don't like the blog features but they seem to be popular items that help build a sense of community and encourage people to come back and edit in our dark times, plus all work and no play makes homer something something. Agent c 21:32, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I must admit that I really do not understand the need for these tirades at times. Nitty made a joke, take it as it is rather than get offended due to some allegiance that barely affects your life. This is the kind of thing that creates animosity, and people coming over here, who never edit, specifically to try to get across some laboured point in reams of text won't convert people, it'll put their backs up. Per exemple, moi.
 * I did enjoy Leon starting with "it's crap like this that keeps straining our relationship", but then proceeds to make sure that anyone who comes across this and sees Nitty's joke will also see that you cannot take a joke, all for the defence of Nukapedia's honour. I've never taken Nitty to be a malicious person, so I can't see why you would. And if all you've seen when you've come here is really enough badmouthing of Nukapedia to make you sick, you haven't been looking at a lot, have you? Let's do one of those nice point by point addresses we're all so fond of these days that create bad air between people and go into major overkill, opening our argument up to ridicule due to the majority of it probably being typed out in anger rather than saying something like 'I don't appreciate the jokes you all keep making here'.
 * "Yeah, we had a split, and guess who took all of the wiki's information with them? Some of you guys here at The Vault. Information that was owned by the community at Wikia." What I'd like to say here is that you can't own the information, as per law in the licence, but also as there are just as many people here who have as much right to the information that they also poured their hearts into creating. Quick side note here; I think it is completely justifiable that Tag asked you to take those pictures from Flickr instead of from here, simply because he and I did it single-handedly over the period of quite a few days. I alone racked up over 500 edits in sorting and placing those pictures, and due to download costs and the like, actually had to pay around £30 to do so. So although I'm not sure if it was intentional, making it out like we're selfish with our information whilst Nukapedia is oh so generous is not really fair in my opinion, and is slightly hypocritical considering the reason you've gone off on one. This is what I'd like to address next: "I don't believe I've ever seen any of you here at The Vault once asking us to copy content over." Here you are, sorted.
 * Porter is a very decent person, and I can't say that what you said was anything but fair and true, so why would I?
 * Although I agree it was morally wrong, and I too applaud Ghost's handling of the Broc incident, I think the point being made is that it wasn't illegal to do so, although at times I do think this CC-BY-SA policy can easily be abused. Again though, it is not just the Vault who is to blame, and I have seen discussions on Nukapedia whereby users have said that if we refuse them something, they can and might just take it, something I'm glad Ghost promised me he would prevent. Therefore, although I am of the same point of view as you regarding that particular incident, I must say that Nukapedia is not whiter than white.
 * Your entire next point amuses me, if only because it is completely hypocritical and not well thought out for something that 'really gets you'. You talk of us admins badmouthing you, and trying to steal your 'customers', but I find that laughable and note you did not give any example. The only admins I have ever seen in the chat there for nearly a year from here are Tagz, Kas, Ghost and myself. I have never seen them bad-mouth Nukapedia, so I'd have liked to see that claim supported. This part in particular made me laugh (disregarding the part about 'stealing patrons', your analogy leaves a lot to be desired in the interests of covering yourself): "That's like having managers at your fast-food restaurant go to another restaurant with the specific purpose of bad-mouthing their bosses". Hmm, does this chunk sound familiar? Oh yeah, you (a Nukapedian 'Manager') has come over here, to the very core of our 'restaurant', "with the specific purpose of bad-mouthing [our] bosses" (admins) highlighted by the fact you don't edit here, (so you're not an employee) and by the complementary fact that you are slagging off our admins.
 * I've only ever seen Nukapedia called a fake Vault in the quote that you have pulled up, which was not only just a month after the split, but it was from last year. You are extrapolating the view of one admin, and affixing it to all the others that reside here, which seems a tad unfair in my book. After all, I believe that Nitty was not saying that, but rather making a joke that would appeal to the demographic it is poised towards (id est by playing on the loyalties that people have concerning their particular website, as evidenced by your reaction to his words.)
 * Luckily, I can recognise my own words, so I can explain them seen as you have taken them from their context. This was at the point I had been seeing a lot of discussion of the CC-BY-SA license, with the conclusion that you could take whatever you wanted. In this post, I was saying that anything we do to ensure we don't die as a website could be taken without our permission, so unless we did something that would clash with your software so that we have some form of advantage in order to keep this place going, we weren't going to. I'd also like to remind you that this was at the point it was just Kas, Tagz, Ghost, Porter and I that were editing, in comparison to your hundreds per day. Ignorance is not bliss, and if I'd have offended you that badly, as my friend, you could have said to me and I would've explained then and there, rather than several months down the line. Furthermore, some of our ideas had been taken up by Nukapedia as we discussed them, and as I said, it wasn't particularly harmful or important (I don't mind either way), but it was just stating that Nukapedians do come here and read up on what we are doing. Case in point, you have come to this very minor forum, and taken this hopeless crusade upon yourself, whilst at the same time sifting through anything and everything in order to procure evidence for your points (even if you completely ignore their context). "Would some of you actually impede your own progression here because of some unjustified fear that evil little Nukapedia will come and steal everything" just shows this as such, if not only because of what I have explained, but because you have talked of impeding progress, when it was in fact progress that I was attempting to achieve, thus showing you have simply got yourself annoyed over this bit, and disregarded the rest of the forum page. Woefully, I have an eidetic memory.
 * You are wrong concerning Inqu- E-, though I did see you step in. For example, if you look further into this, you will find that we refused them the ability to copy over that content, proposed a new site to be started from scratch, and I personally objected to the same name being used, so that now they are brainstorming ideas in another forum. I for one didn't see it early on, but we, as good admins whether you like it or not, objected to the plagiarism and steered the birth of the fan-fic site firmly away from it.
 * "Personally, I have no problems with any of you guys, and if we can't be of a single community, then I would at least hope we could be mutually beneficial friends. I have no problem with any one person here, as well, so don't think this was a personal attack on any specific one of you. It's just upsetting when we've been working so hard at keeping a decent relationship working between us, and then I get on here always seeing comments and discussions like this. Just please take our community into consideration instead of instantly assuming Nukapedia is underneath The Vault. Thank you for reading, and hopefully understanding." I'm pleased you've ended like this, and I think it is very respectable. I would however ask that you bear in mind we aren't all evil scheming people, with the intent of defaming Nukapedia, and that the community there are not as perfect as you have made out. I too hope to keep the friendliness up, and that is mainly why I am here and there, but next time try and approach with more tact, maybe taking a more ambassadorial tone than an accusatory one, like in the italised line.
 * In fact, I don’t think I could put my sentiments in any better way than what Kas has said, and there is no word in what he has said in his post that I disagree with. I'd also like to thanks Leon at this point for doing as he said he would and replacing the wide-brush strokes remarks.
 * As for X, I'd like to say that the pages aren't 'missing', but we recently cut down on quite a lot of pages we deemed unnecessary. Also, if you are unsure whether we do ask, I have not seen something that has not been asked for, and personally always ask, just as I show an example of in the link above.
 * Jspoel makes a few good points, but that in itself is proof that we are not always asked, so it does go both ways. I have seen J credit things to other people, but never seen him ask them aside from the time he asked Tagz for our images. Now, don't get me wrong here, I will say now that that is fine by me, because we don't want to go into overkill with asking to borrow a sentence or two, because like Kas said, we write this stuff because we want it to be read, and I doubt many readers go into the history to see who wrote what bit, but it's nice to know that your work is acknowledged, and that's how it should be with copying content.
 * Chad, my OCD compels me to tell you that you didn't close the brackets you opened. Aside from that, that is the kind of talk I was discussing. I would ask that the fact you don't need permission due to the license stop being brought up in discussions, if only for the fact that knowledge of that might deter the lazier soles of the internet not to bother obtainig it, but also because the more people who are unaware, the better, because then people will follow the example set by senior editors and always ask for permission because they won't know any different. In that case, I think ignorance (of that rule) will be bliss (for the relations between communities).
 * I feel I said all I wanted to say, and have whittled away my time between lunch and going to my friend’s birthday, so I will bid you all adieu. I hope I have not offended anyone, I merely wished to defend the Vault against the onslaught of Leon's post where not all the information was strictly correct, and to give the other side of the story as this will forever be on the internet now. To lessen the hatred that I fear may come of this post, I wish to say a few last things that have nothing really to do with wikis.
 * Leon, I loved those photos you took in Norway, they were literally amazing. My personal favourite has to be the one with the winding road and the cliff-side tunnel.
 * Secondly, I got into university yesterday to do history so will take this as a time to quickly boast ;).
 * I'm going to lock this page now, so that it can't flair up again. I know it seems unfair saying all that I have said, so please feel free to leave me a message here at the Vault, as I will be editing my user-space wiki from time to time over the coming days. -- GOTW '''User 14:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)