Forum:Terminology: "Non-player character" & "pre-war"

Yeah, another of Porter's category naming/spelling threads ;)

"Non-player characters"
I'd like to rename the "non-player characters" category (along with all derived subcategories like "Fallout 3 non-player characters") to simply "characters". The current category structure is:

This, while logical, results in the NPC categories being overly cumbersome to use: Editors have to type the extra "non-player" whenever adding a character image or page. However, there are only about 20-30 player characters but thousands of NPCs, so I don't think this additional workload is justified. I'd propose to change it to the following:

As I see it, player characters are simply a special type of character (much like cut or mentioned-only characters), and this structure reflects that. Thoughts? -- Porter21 (talk) 06:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong with the current setup. I think including the "non-player" moniker is more intuitive than not. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 06:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * If it were more intuitive, then (new) editors should be more prone to add uploaded images to "Category: non-player character images" rather than "Category: character images", no? However, that is not the case, and it's the same for the article categories unless they use a preloaded layout. You'll also be hard-pressed to find more gaming wikis with the "non-player" setup, which doesn't support the "more intuitive" argument either.
 * Let me highlight the inconsistency a bit more: The main per-game categories are called " non-player characters". The location-specific categories are called " characters". The race categories are called " characters". The faction categories are called " characters". The cut/mentioned-only categories are called " cut/mentioned-only characters". All of these contain NPCs. Notice the odd man out?
 * Overview pages: The categories for weapons are called " weapons", the respective overview pages are called " weapons" (" factions" -> " factions"; " perks" -> " perks"; etc). The categories for characters are " non-player characters", the overview pages are called " characters". Again, notice the odd man out?
 * In my opinion, the "non-player" moniker is simply an unnecessary complication. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:16, June 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think leaving the non-player character moniker out would be useful as well. If one category is listed player characters, it would be redundant in a way. I have noticed the fact about image tagging. When I look up an character on the wiki that is not myself in-game, let's say I want to look up "10 of spades". I already know he's not my character in-game so why would we need to have the words "non-player" added to the category. Kinda obvious and it seems that the newer editors are thinking along those lines. Just my two cents.--Kingclyde 09:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with this as far as categorization goes. It's simpler and more intuitive than having that non-player part in there, while still retaining the essence of how it's organized. -- 15:51, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

I'm all for changing the non-player character (images) categories to just character (images). I've been doing a tiny bit of work on the dutch Fallout site and it's just in the beginning stages, with everything to decide, even on how to name categories. First thing I was thinking there, we need to get rid of the non~player part. And like Porter says, it really not needed. I mean, 2 in total for Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas? Just merge all characters to character (images). Jspoel 13:48, June 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it's fine to put player characters in an own sub-category (just like "weapons" are in an own sub-category of "items", pretty much the same thing in principle). However, I don't think we need to prefix all other characters with "non-player" because of that, and it seems that largely people agree with that assessment. Unless somebody speaks up against it, I'm going to start changing the categories next week. -- Porter21 (talk) 01:48, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Renaming now in progress. This will likely take hours to complete due to the high number of affected pages; just so people are aware. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:03, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Now done. Please let me know if you notice any issues (categories which weren't moved etc). -- Porter21 (talk) 06:40, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

"Pre-war"/"pre-War"
I think we need to settle on a standardized spelling of "pre-(W/w)ar". Both alternatives, "pre-war" and "pre-War", are currently used frequently which results in inconsistent article naming. Looking forward to hearing your opinions :) -- Porter21 (talk) 06:20, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm in favour of "pre-War" and always capitalize it as such. It's an useful shorthand for referring to the Old World before the bombs - something pre-war can be something from before the NCR/Legion war, while something pre-War is something from before the Great War. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 06:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm also in favour of "pre-War" because it differentiates "pre-Great-War" from "pre-war" as it is often used in everyday speech (i.e. referring to WWII). -- Porter21 (talk) 09:09, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * The wording "pre-War" makes more sense to me as well. Just let me know when you need those fixed and I'll hop on it.--Kingclyde 09:21, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

As "war" isn't a proper noun on its own, I think lower case is correct; however if the term was "Pre-Great War" then capitalisation would be correct. Agent c 12:57, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * War is a proper noun when referring to the Great War in the context of Fallout. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 14:32, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure "pre-War" is already the preferred capitalization when referring to the Great War. I don't see any reason to change that at this point; just because it might be used incorrectly as "pre-war" in some places doesn't mean the whole concept needs to be called into question. It also doesn't mean that "pre-war" is incorrect wherever it appears, as long as it's not referring to the Great War then it should be lowercase. -- 15:51, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's less about changing the standard, it's more about setting a standard people can be pointed to in the first place. The decapitalized version is used in more than just a few places from what I've seen. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:58, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * In general with hyphens, you capitalize both words if the second word is a noun or adjective, or if it has equal balance with the first word when that is capped. So it would either be Pre-War, Pre-war or pre-war, but not pre-War. If we are going to consider pre-war to be a proper noun when referring directly to Pre-Great War, then it should be Pre-War in all instances. Otherwise, when generalising it would be pre-war (or Pre-war if a sentence starter). User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 18:32, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar of any such rule. Here's an example of usage analogous to "pre-War" - Specimens of the pre-Shakespearean drama. Ausir(talk) 23:01, June 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I´m confused after reading Avatar´s reaction. Think it should be pre-War of Pre-War then. JspoelJspoel Vault Boy.png 13:48, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've always made it say Pre-War in the past but lately prior to this I've changed it to pre-war.--Kingclyde 19:25, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say pre-War. Ausir(talk) 19:52, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * pre-War doesn't make sense to me. Hell, even Great War doesn't make sense considering WWI is also called the Great War and still exists in this time line. And Ausir I said above, in general. Like all things there are exceptions, example eBay for a proper noun and so forth. But I thing that this is a ideal opportunity for a poll since there are varied options. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 20:02, June 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Then we may just as well add a few more of those, like what is and what is not a proper noun for certain items. consumables is then the first thing that comes to my mind. JspoelJspoel Vault Boy.png 21:51, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the spelling of pre-War. As Tag said, pre-war can mean anything before a certain war, and pre-War is being more specific about the Great War. To what you said Jspoel, if we did a poll like that, I would like to see all unique items such as clothing and weapons capitalized, stats such as Barter, Speech, etc. capitalized, the stats for SPECIAL capitalized, and brand specific items such as Fancy Lads to be capitalized. TrailerParkApe TPA 22:01, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Stats are already capped. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 00:17, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * You know, I have thought about this some more and it should be pre-war in all cases. This is because it is a general term and can refer to any war in the minds of the reader. If someone is referring to Pre-Great War specifically, then they should write it as Pre-Great War and not be lazy in leaving out the "Great" part. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 15:08, June 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if we are going to start grammar nitpicking then "pre-War" isn't really a proper noun; it's an adjective composed of a prefix and a proper noun. I've been googling rules regarding such combinations and all sites I've found only state that in this case a hyphen needs to be put between the prefix and the proper noun (i.e. you can't collate it which is rather logical), but nothing about needing to capitalize the prefix.
 * Regarding "Great War" and "War" - proper nouns are always a matter of context (including historical context) and scope. For example, somebody referring to the "Great War" in 1920 would probably have meant WW1, while somebody using the same term in the 1950s would likely have meant WW2. Within the scope of the Fallout setting and its time period, I think it's rather clear that "Great War" or even the "War" refers to the 2077 conflict as it's one of the (if not the) most-defining event of the setting/time.
 * Finally, I think it's more reader-friendly to distinguish between the general "pre-war" and the "pre-War" referring to the time period before the Great War. As you said, "pre-war" can refer to any conflict and as such, using "pre-War" for the time period before 2077 would improve clarity, while using the decapitalized version would reduce it. -- Porter21 (talk) 01:48, June 9, 2011 (UTC)

Also, regarding "pre-War" vs. "pre-Great War", pre-War is used within the games themselves thereby lending significant weight to the argument in favour of pre-War. It has nothing to do with lazy, if the developers are telling everyone it's pre-War then pre-War is what most people are going to call it. --User Avatar talk.png 02:15, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't think the "used by devs" line of thought is going to get us far in this case - I've seen all three variants (pre-war, pre-War, Pre-War) used in the games. -- Porter21 (talk) 02:24, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me, I was discussing pre-War (and all its capitalised variants) vs. pre-Great War which Ghost saw as a viable solution. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 22:48, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my bad - it was rather late ;) -- Porter21 (talk) 06:04, June 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh, I am just going by the results I googled. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 20:02, June 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Have we got any further with the pre-(W/w)ar yet? User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 12:05, June 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think it should definitely be pre-War. --User Avatar talk.png 00:59, June 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I can agree on pre-War. Just a few dozen other cap-decap issues left :\ JspoelJspoel Vault Boy.png 01:32, June 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, we can have a poll if people think it's necessary, but to me it seems most people prefer "pre-War". As for other capitalization issues, I'd suggest making a forum thread in which all of these can be discussed (one section for each) and to which new ones can be added when they come up. Having a poll for every single one seems a bit over-the-top to me, so I'd suggest we'd simply go with the majority opinion for each spelling there. -- Porter21 (talk) 20:57, July 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * agreed, now changing to pre-War where I see it otherwise. Just needs to be added somewhere to point people to, I suggest The Vault:Editing guideline. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 13:32, July 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe make a sub-page for specific spellings? I think if we start listing all of them on VA:EDIT it's going to clutter the page in the long run. -- Porter21 (talk) 12:20, July 3, 2011 (UTC)