Forum:Impartial Meditation?

How exactly does the Impartial Meditation perk work? I know it gives 30 points to Speech only if you're Neutral, but:

Is it demanding that you stay Neutral for the rest of the playtime, and disappear if you don't?

Or does it show itself as a buff only when you're Neutral? Kind of like "Sawbones Precision"?

Anyways, I need to know if its a good perk, and more importantly, if its worth having...

Does anyone have a clue? AngryNorwegianDude 19:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * First, it's "mediation", not meditation. Second, yes, it only works if you have Neutral Karma.  --MadDawg2552 20:22, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

---

♠To be perfectly honest, I would have to say that unless you're going for a strictly neutral character and are watching your Karma levels via the console, its actually difficult to maintain a neutral karma level. It's possible, but it takes an ungodly amount of effort to do so, IMO. There are of course, multiple ways to raise and lower karma easily, but the mere fact that you have to do so right before a speech challenge just to make use of the impartial mediation seems to me, a waste. Karma is raised and lowered in either huge chunks (via quests) or in miniscule increments (via various actions), so its difficult to maintain neutral karma unless you go out of your way to raise or lower it accordingly. Chances are you'll be dipping in the good or bad karma every now and then and then you'll have to work to get back to neutral. So if you're willing to check on your karma and adjust it accordingly EVERY TIME you get to a speech challenge you want to pass, then, sure, it's worth having. But if you don't want to go that extra mile (believe me, maintaining neutrality involves extra work through 'normal' play - i.e. finishing quests) then no, there are many other perks which you could benefit from. Magnum101 00:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I really have to disagree. I have a neutral character, made around the idea of a "Mister Charisma" type. Its really not that difficult at all to maintain neutrality. Just steal (anything, including junk, one at a time from containers) when its high, and give Purified Water to the ehm, "parched" guys near towns when its low. I recommend going way over the limit to bring your karma into neutrality, as this gives you more of a buffer against future karma alterations. But I really haven't had to do this karma adjusting much at all. The Impartial Mediation perk is definitely worth it for all the Speech tests. Not so much for the relatively low XP reward, but for the many great other rewards. My character rarely fails at Speech tests, most are 100%. Once it brought me from ~60 to ~90, I didn't need to put anymore points into Speech, just enjoyed the benefits.

--Wally

♠ But you prove my point right there. You have to steal when its high, and give purified water when its low. You have to adjust it accordingly. There is no way to play the game "naturally" as a neutral character. I can play the game as a naturally evil character. I don't need to steal to get evil karma, just finish quests in an evil way. I can also naturally play the game as a good character, just by finishing quests in a good way. To play the neutral character, you have to adjust your karma because most quests cannot be completed in a neutral way. They give massive amounts of karma, which you have to readjust. Example: Blowing up Megaton is -1000 karma right there. All of a sudden you're in evil karma hell. Even disarming the bomb gives you 200 good karma. Completing the Big Town quest gives you 200 positive karma, as does sticking around to protect it. "I recommend going way over the limit to bring your karma into neutrality, as this gives you more of a buffer against future karma alterations" - this is why you haven't had to adjust as much. Again, it's proof that you have to work to maintain neutral karma. If you want to complete a certain quest in a certain way then you have to prepare for it, karmically speaking. I'm not saying its impossible. I have a neutral character myself. But as I said, I need to watch her karma levels at all times. And on console versions of the game its quite difficult to know exactly what karma level you're on to maintain neutrality. (-250 to 250). Say you want to do the GNR quest. By completing it, thats 300 positive karma (if i'm not mistaken). You have to make sure that your karma level is at -250 to -50. Any more, and you'll dip into the positive. Thats an error margin of just 200 points. Of course, you can always dip into the positive and then steal or kill or enslave to put you back into the neutral...but that's extra work. You don't need to give purified water if you're a good character, or steal if you're a bad character. To maintain neutrality is to do a lot of extra stuff you wouldn't normally do in the course of the game. In fact, if you want to STRICTLY remain neutral at all times, then you're better off not completing certain quests...well, a LOT of quests. Is it easy to get back to neutral once you dip into the positive or negative? OF COURSE! But if you do that, you won't really be neutral, would you? Cheers! Magnum101 23:28, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, I must disagree. Neutrality doesn't necessarily mean its own karmic position, but is rather a balancing of the other two. Basically, a character who's neutral has the freedom, well, do whatever they wish, perhaps selfishly, perhaps feeling amused to help others. Basically, a neutral character keeps to their own agenda, and can dip a toe into the pond of the other karmas' ways. I've been a role-playing gamer since the late 70's, and playing certain neutral alignment characters, such as druids and neutral thieves, in the old school AD&D, was quite interesting and different from playing good, and the few evil characters I played. (Of course, there was also the whole lawful and chaotic aspect as well, but that's another story).

In any case, as for the difficulty of adjusting one's karma into neutrality, its really not that hard, as I stated previously, and moreover, you don't need to make (perk-adjusted) Speech checks all that often. As for keeping track of one's, eh, "karmic balance", its easy enough to do from the Pip-Boy menu, and really only has to be checked after a reward or penalty to ones karma, which is fairly easy to note what with the accompanying distinctive sound effect.

BTW: You said, "And on console versions of the game its quite difficult to know exactly what karma level you're on to maintain neutrality. (-250 to 250)". I haven't seen the PC version of the game. How does it differ in this regard? Well, other than the console commands, I'd like to know how else it differs, but that's another topic.

--Wally

♠ using the console on the PC can get you the exact numerical value of karma. But like I said, you have to keep track of your karma to remain neutral. Do things outside of what you would usually do to maintain neutrality. Take the Rescue from Paradise quest. It automatically grants you 300 positive karma on completion. Say you've somehow managed to play a neutral character up to this point, meaning your karma is 0. Completing this quest puts you in the good karma range. Only 50 points above the limit, but for that moment, you're a good karma character. You need to get it back to neutral. 50 points isn't that much of a change, I will agree. Kill a good character or enslave one, that's -100 karma right there. Easy? Yes. But it is EXTRA work. If I were playing a good character, would I NEED to check my PipBoy? NO. I don't need to donate to churches or give purified water. Why? Because naturally playing the good character means that I don't need to worry myself over that. If I were playing a bad character, would I NEED to check my PipBot? Again, No. I don't need to steal, enslave, or kill because naturally playing an evil character means I don't have to worry myself about that.

In regards to your view of neutral characters, I agree entirely. I also have significant roleplaying experience. But that's not the point. I'm not talking about any deeper meaning than the outright numerical value that the game gives and records as your karma level. I don't question the motives of the player character and say, well he's neutral because he may do a few good things and a few bad things, making him overall in the end. It's a game. And the game gives you positive karma and negative karma as a reward for finishing quests in a certain way. Neutrality doesn't mean its own karmic position? Of course it doesn't, if you're talking about the real concept of karma. BUT THIS IS A GAME! Where Karma is calculated numerically! It is inherent into the computer program that it HAS ITS OWN KARMIC POSITION. Evil is -1000 to -250, Neutral is -249 to 249, and good is 250 to 1000. There it is, right in the center.

The debate here is whether or not the perk is worth it. If you're willing to do the math or put in the extra effort to maintain neutrality, then yes, it is. But if you're not, if you just want to play the game and not worry whether or not your perk will work because you may have done too much good or too much evil in the last quest, then no, its not. I didn't say it would be difficult, I said it would be difficult UNLESS you're going for a strictly neutral character, and it would be difficult over the course of NORMAL play. I don't normally give water to beggars unless im playing a neutral character and need to boost karma to maintain it. I don't usually steal random stuff or ammo unless im playing a neutral character and need to knock karma down to maintain it. But that's the type of thing you need to do to maintain it. It's EXTRA work. Not difficult work, but EXTRA work.

The addition of one other statistic you should watch out for while playing is not a major problem, if you really want a neutral character. But if you come across a place and want to make the speech challenge, only to find out you went (+) or (-) karma sometime in recent history, you have to make the necessary corrections, don't you? Extra work. It doesn't change my initial statement. And I quote: "But if you don't want to go that extra mile (believe me, maintaining neutrality involves extra work through 'normal' play - i.e. finishing quests) then no, there are many other perks which you could benefit from"

The reason i use the words UNGODLY is because maintaining a neutral stance means maintaining neutrality. You neither shift overtly to good or evil. But for you to HAVE to shift just so you can maintain neutrality is UNGODLY. It should be more difficult to be pure good or pure evil rather than neutral, but that's not the case. No man is ALL GOOD or ALL EVIL. Everyone leans to one side or the other, but everyone is basically neutral. THAT'S what I meant. It is easier to make a holier-than-thou, self-righteous hero or a despicable villain in this game than it is to make a truly neutral one.

I can understand that a person such as yourself, Wally, who has significant experience in roleplaying games finds a neutral character easy to play in this game. It is easy if you're willing to take the extra effort. It's even easier when you DON'T SEE IT AS EXTRA EFFORT. You don't, because you are a seasoned roleplaying gamer. But doing so requires that you do things in very specific ways. (for example, the Tranquility Lane quest can only be finished IN ONE WAY in order to come out with the exact same karma as you had when coming in - if you do things any differently, you'll have either much more or much less karma when exiting the simulation) What happens if you do things the evil way then go someplace which requires a Speech challenge to pass? You find that you only have 30% chance to succeed, and lo and behold you've discovered you're an evil character now. Find a beggar and give water? It's easy...YES...but it's also an unnecessary detour. If there was truly a neutral way of doing things this small hiccup would have never occurred. For hardcore roleplayers, even worse: Say the above happens, and I go to say...Rivet City to give water to the beggar there, and all of a sudden i'm accosted by Regulators with a bounty on my head? Just because I became evil for a brief moment? It somehow doesn't make sense, if I'm taking my roleplaying seriously. Ten minutes of evil and all of a sudden I'm being hunted? THAT's what I mean.

True, neutrality doesn't mean a character necessarily has to do nothing. A person can lean one way for one moment and then the other the next. But that's real life, friend. This is a game that is based on numbers. Once you dip into good, the game doesn't see you as someone who did good in the process of 'keeping to his own agenda', the game sees you as AN ABSOLUTE GOOD character. You can't explain to the game that you only did it for the reward, even if you curse and demand one after rescuing NPC's and say "My character was only in it for the money!" The game doesn't do that. It sees the rescue as a good thing. BAM. Good karma. To put it in AD&D terms: You're a neutral mercenary for hire who has to rescue a group of kidnapped NPC's from ogres because it's the only way to get the leader of the village to trust you, and there's something in the village you need. Do you have to do something evil to maintain neutrality? NO. In contrast to Fallout 3: You're a neutral mercenary for hire who has to rescue a group of kidnapped kids from slavers because it's the only way to get the leader of Little Lamplight to trust you, and there's something in Little Lamplight you need. Do you have to do something evil to maintain neutrality? YES. And there you go.

So, I apologize for the lengthy discussion, but as I said, if you're willing to go the extra mile, then yes, the perk is worth it. If you want to play the game without having to worry whether or not you need to give away water or pilfer junk, then no, it isn't. Cheers! Magnum101 06:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have no problems with "going the extra mile", so i think this perk is officially on the perk list. Thanks for the help, everyone! AngryNorwegianDude 06:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

♠ Ah, then it's settled. :) Magnum101 06:57, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Lengthy but interesting discussion. The question remains though, how much of a hassle is the extra work that is required in order to maintain a neutral karma? Magnum101 makes it sound like it's much hassle, Wally makes it sound likes it's nearly nothing. Is there any way of stepping out of subjectivity for this evaluation and giving concrete pointers? Giving purified water for example, how much of a hassle can it be? Is purified water easily available from say, easy-to-find vendors? As for means of quickly and painlessly lowering karma, what are they and how quick and painless are they?

The charisma-oriented character sure sounds like an interesting build, it would be nice to know if this neutral karma requirement of its dedicated perk warrants a tedious gameplay or not... and how much:-) Like, are you likely to come to need to dedicate an hour of your gaming-time to adjusting your karma? If so, how many times in the course of the game?

Quintal 78.114.155.215 18:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Raising speech is extremely easy in F3, as the article states you can get a whooping 102 free skill points on speech. So I´d consider this more of a "fun" perk, if you´re purposely roleplaying a neutral character it does have its uses, but under normal circumstances there´s much better choices. If you really think you need to raise speech, just get the Tag! perk, which will give you only have the bonus but spares you the hassle of faking your karma. Golan2781 21:05, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Besides which, Quintal, if you're making a Charisma-heavy character, it should be noted that the SPECIAL stats don't do as much as they do in other roleplaying games. Meaning 1 Charisma and 100 Speech will usually result in 90-100% successful speech challenges anyway. If you're making a diplomat type, you would have probably invested skill points in Speech to begin with. Add that to the fact that there are a lot of speech-boosting apparel out there, you can easily make 100 speech before hitting level 20. The 30 extra points of impartial mediation are therefore useless, unless you're going for a specific 'flavor' in your character. Magnum101 23:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

(Yeah this is a fun discussion. Yay!) Magnum, I must respectfully, again, disagree. First of all, nearly -all- role-playing is a numbers game, though *cough* LARPers and Vampire: The Masquerade players might disagree. But that's all rules stuff that makes the role-playing happen. I mean, you don't have your paladin in AD&D say something like, "Foul daemon, thou hast eaten thy last maiden. Now submit, or ye shalt feel the sharp faith coursing through my Plus Five Holy Avenger!" The whole idea of role-playing is to use the numbers to hold the game together behind the scenes, but the in-game behavior ignores that and you should dictate like characters in a book or other media (for lack of a superior description coming to mind). Keeping neutral has other purposes in the game, or otherwise adjusting your karma. Most significantly, getting a follower, such as neutrality for the Sergeant, or evil for Jericho (or as I call him, Jerk-O, heh). Maintaining a neutral karma is a game unto itself, and though it seems like a kludge to go through, for role-playing discussion, you might tell the DM/GM/AM-PM, "I go on a crime spree, just because I FEEL like it. These do-gooders have rubbed me the wrong way." or "The stench of foul acts is just too much. I do good deeds for the people around town. I give water to the beggars. Donate alms to the church. Help Missus Abernathy with her groceries.(They better not get used to it.)" You see what I mean? In role-playing terms we don't get into the numbers. That's just the girders behind the walls that hold everything together. The beauty of video games is that most of that number-crunching is handled by the machine, like dice rolls for making to-hit checks and so forth, with very respectively few numbers accessible/viewable to the player. This goes all the way back to the original Ultima (heh, my very first computer game I got for free with my Apple ][ plus), and Wizardry and the like, probably even further with the ooolllddd consoles.

Whether it be paper & pencil or computer-driven, there's always going to be min-maxers that twist the system to get the most out of it. I myself have been known to do so. heh, Witness my newest character, Frank Ventura, who has a 31 DR naked, ~134 APs, Lincoln's Repeater, etc., and is followed by Charon, the Sergeant and Clover (poor baby Dogmeat, boo-hoo). I've played many other types, like Professor Tanaka (aka the neutral, sweet-talkin' Mister Charisma), Irma Geddon (my evil b!tch character and Melee Weapons specialist), Mike Tyson IV (my Unarmed specialist), Big Bang Barata (my Big Guns specialist, hahaha, wants to marry Vengeance), et al, but with Frank I just wanted to go full-on with. Hey, if you enjoy playing that way, more power to ya. I enjoy doing the neutral-balancing thing with Tanaka. Irma's got the Night Person perk, which also subtly adjusts your gameplay.

As for the article on Speech, I must disagree with some of those, in that some you need Speech to get Speech, like Yew's test to be her "2nd best friend", and thus later get her bear charm.

Eh, I'm winded. Until the AntAgonizer buys a Honda,

--Wally

♠ I agree, Wally. But the fact is, the numbers dictate the game. If I want a character to remain neutral 100% of the time, as a hardcore roleplayer I want that neutrality to always be there. I don't want Regulators after me or Talon Company mercs after me because my character is neutral. If the game says I can have Sergeant RL-3 and Butch because they only want neutral karma, then that's what I want. As you so eloquently put it: MAINTAINING NEUTRAL KARMA IS A GAME UNTO ITSELF. That was my point in the first place. If you WANT that neutral character, then you will work for it, and you probably won't say its extra work. If I wanted a sniper character, it wouldn't be extra work in my view to go for the Victory Rifle or the Reservist's Rifle, because that's what my character needs.

The original question was is the perk worth it? If you play the game on the numbers, as you said... min-maxing...then the perk ISN'T worth it. But if you're going for a 'flavor' character, where neutrality and diplomacy are hallmarks of THAT character...then it IS worth it. But do you have to do extra work? I will let your own words answer that question: MAINTAINING NEUTRAL KARMA IS A GAME UNTO ITSELF. It's a game within the game. And if you enjoy the game like you do, you've got a little bias in your views, don't you? For min-maxers it IS extra work that is completely unnecessary. But admittedly, my own STRICTLY neutral character took this perk. I'm not being hypocritical, it's just that I wanted my character to have that kind of thing. And between her and my other characters she DOES need extra work to maintain neutrality. I have played the game in its entirety at least six times already, and in each of those games my characters ended with positive or negative karma. I NEVER had to adjust to maintain my karma. I never had a problem with staying evil or good. But you will have to work to stay neutral. Some would argue that's actually what makes a neutral character so fun to play. I AGREE COMPLETELY. I never said it wasn't fun playing neutral, my second-favorite character is strictly neutral and HAS the perk. And I find her fun to play.

But the question was never about neutrality. It's about whether the perk is worth it. If you're willing to work to MAINTAIN said neutrality, if you're willing, then it is. If you're NOT, then it's NOT. Clearly, you are willing to work at maintaining neutrality, and in your mindset it's part of the fun. More power to you. The perk is therefore worth it to you. But it's clearly conditional. If you don't like playing the neutral game within the game, then you're not going to enjoy having to work at it. Like some people who hate the Hacking game, since it's too slow for their tastes in an action game like Fallout 3. I like it.

True, in roleplaying games, you don't want to get into numbers. No one does. You're example proves my point. Quote: "you might tell the DM/GM/AM-PM, "I go on a crime spree, just because I FEEL like it. These do-gooders have rubbed me the wrong way." or "The stench of foul acts is just too much. I do good deeds for the people around town. I give water to the beggars. Donate alms to the church. Help Missus Abernathy with her groceries.(They better not get used to it.)" You see what I mean? In role-playing terms we don't get into the numbers" - but herein lies the main flaw with computer games, which YOU also pointed out. The machine handles the numbers, which isn't the beauty, it's the flaw. You can't tell the machine the reasons behind your actions. You can't say IT'S JUST BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE IT. But guess what. The machine sees in black and white. Good or bad karma. It doesn't matter if in your head you had selfish reasons for doing an inherently good act, or if you feel justified that you did a bad one. The machine only gives based on its programming. Which, though I hate to say it, means that you have to take notice of the NUMBERS.

Example: Rescue kids from Little Lamplight. A person with truly noble intentions would do it simply because it's the right thing to do. A neutral person might do it because its the only way they would be let into Little Lamplight. But the game doesn't compute noble intention or self-interest, now, does it? Its a good karma act - case closed. Another example: Stealing results in -5 karma per item stolen. Killing a good person or enslaving them is -100 karma. Are you honestly going to tell me that stealing 20 tin plates is as bad as killing the owner of the house? But that's how the game operates. And if you are a person who wants the most out of the game by playing the numbers instead of playing a ROLE...then you DO need to pay attention to the numbers. And for some people, that's a hassle that's not worth dealing with.

Another example: I once created a character with 100 in all skills through a great number of skill books, bobbleheads, and high intelligence. Was it worth it? If I want to brag about a character with 100 in all skills, YES it was worth it. But from a practical standpoint, doing all that was useless. Barter is a completely useless skill, since money isn't particularly difficult to come by. Medicine is rarely used. And let's face it, no one uses ALL weapon skills anyway. So going through all that hard work to get all the items I needed may seem like a waste...but not to me. Why? Because it's WHAT I WANTED.

A true roleplayer might be okay with making a character who is intellectually challenged, making him a 'gentle-hearted, muscle-bound idiot'. The fun is playing that character and playing that role, and working with it. But a practical gamer will say: Without intelligence you might not have the necessary skill points to reach 100 in melee weapons, not to mention all the rooms/loot you'll be missing out on because you're lockpick / science wouldn't be high enough. There's nothing wrong with making a challenging character and playing with it. There's also nothing wrong with crunching the numbers and making sure that you're character is equipped to deal with all situations at all times by taking every measure to prepare for it. Two different styles of play, both can be fun if you give them the chance.

The question "Is the perk worth it?" - is a question of PRACTICALITY. Golan2781 has answered from a practical standpoint: There are better perks that aren't as restrictive, and raising speech is easy in F3. From a practical standpoint, NO it's not. He also gave a condition wherein the perk is worth it: If you're purposely roleplaying a neutral character. No one ever put into question if a neutral character was fun to play. It is fun. If that's your sort of thing. I made a Night person character as well (eventually making him to a Hemophage). Is the character fun to play? YES! Is the perk worth it though? It doesn't matter how much fun I have with the character, the answer is a RESOUNDING NO. I put in the perk because I was going for a specific character type.

So Impartial Mediation? Is it worth it? Final answer is that from a practical standpoint, it's not. From a roleplaying standpoint, it is, if you're roleplaying a neutral character. Magnum101 01:47, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I've just started a new, eh, Missus Charisma, character. Her name is Cassandra Dumont (a real Mae West type), she's neutral and will most probably take Impartial Mediation, at the very least to save the accompanying 30 skills points. But unlike my last "Mister Charisma" character, Professor Tanaka, with which I got sidetracked into more combat-oriented skills & perks, instead of intellect & charisma ones, with her I intend to stay the course, and try to center around charisma-based perks, skills and actions. She's got Black Widow & Child At Heart already and has used it respectively on Mr. Burke (don't let him fool you, he's -no- gentleman!) and Maggie in Megaton, but I must say that Billy Creel's secret stash was really pathetic. I also think a Charisma-based character, with a high Speech, would succeed at most of the accompanying Speech checks anyways.

She'll be taking both levels of Animal Friend, which hopefully proves to be interesting. Hmm, I wonder if it'll do anything special with Dogmeat? I wish it worked on those damned annoying Bloatflies & RadRoaches, or that the Entomologist perk had the same effect on insects/arachnids, instead of just the extra damage. I likewise think it would be interesting if the same were true of Robotics Expert, though I would think that'd be a Science-based perk, and the "special effect" being that the character has some sort of ranged hacking or remote control device.

In any case, she's now lvl 6, collects dresses, and she's taken advantage of Wadsworth's ability to do her hair several times. Currently she's got a platinum Domestic Goddess style. Very striking, dahling.

--Wally 12:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

♠ You'll probably want a Pre-War Bonnet to complete the look, Wally. Just a suggestion. :) Try it with a spring outfit and a missile launcher (really!) Magnum101 00:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh please! I could nevah be that gauche! Of course, the very first trip I took after finding a domicile in that, ha, charming Megaton, was ovah to the elegant and evah so tall Tennypenny Tower. Let's just say I, eh, persuaded that venomous Mr. Burke into divulging its location, shortly before he *cough* gave up the ghost. (I had never even HELD a baseball bat before! Simms told me I had the wrong end. Honestly! Well, actually it was young Harden. ) Anyhoo, at the Tower, there were such well-dressed, coifed and erudite citizenry, its difficult to imagine that horrid Mr. Burke making his home here. Why, I overheard one woman speaking of caviar!! I should only hope its not of that awful Mirelurk origin. In any case, I snapped up every kind of dress they had, and of course, a pair of bonnets (in case one is assailed by Molerat spittle. *bleah!*) Those dirty and grimy dresses are indeed a sight, but a little Abraxo should bring them back to sunniness. Oh Waaaadsssworth...

--Wally 05:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)