Talk:Etymology of pure and prime humans

What I removed
The entire pre-War section of FEV; it has nothing to do with the etymology. As the concept itself is defined by the faction utilizing it, ie Unity, Enclave. The section on Marie; what makes you think that she is "pure human" and not some sort of mutation impervious to the Pitt's unique environment? The section on airborne FEV; this is nonsense FEV is not airborne nor does it come from underneath a direct nuclear strike by several stories and survive long enough for it to be wide spread. The section of names; if this section is about the unique mutations then why are we listing every named mutant in the series? This list should be acute to the actual mutations, descriptions if necessary. As for the "Canonical pure human" section itself, this should just go. Unless we should list every pre-War character and the three-or-so that are completely isolated from their environment. Having it implies that those who adapt to it are not human anymore, "unclean" and those whom isolate themselves are true humans, "clean."--Ant2242 (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

1) Then you do not have a full grasp on the etymology of the terminologies being discussed here. Pure human is not a term that was first coined by either the Enclave, or the Master/Lou Tenant. It was a designation present before the Great War, as pure humans were needed in order to fully exploit the benefits of F.E.V. mutations.

2) Being already mutated, has absolutely nothing to do with being, or not being a pure human. Once again, you are not entirely understanding this article. All pure human means, is when a human is either minimally exposed to radiation, or is not exposed to radiation at all (the latter being rarer, since background radiation is a reality of living on this planet). Since Marie is immune to radiation, she would make a perfect candidate for F.E.V. experimentation - therefore, Marie is to be considered a pure human.

3) It does not matter if the airborne theory is nonsense or not. It is still relevant information, and it directly correlates with the pure human terminology. Regardless of how true it is, which is still not entirely clear as of this point in Fallout history, it still has a place on this article.

4) I am not going to answer loaded questions. You know full well that I did not list every named mutant in the series. If you re-write this argument in a respectful manner, I will properly address it.

5) This is what has fully convinced me that you still do you not understand what I sought to accomplish with this article's creation. You argued with me during the entire process of this article's creation, as you keep making the untrue assumption that this article is to distinguish lesser and greater humans. Stop. Just stop. From the opening paragraph:

So I will reiterate: all being a pure human means, is when a human has been exposed to minimal radiation, and properly reacts with F.E.V. Background radiation is fine, but anyone that has had cancerous mutations, or have been exposed to the pre-War wastes for an extended period of time with little to no protection, are not to be considered pure humans unless they are shown to undergo proper F.E.V. mutations. For example: the Enclave that left the oil rig, cannot be assumed to be pure humans anymore, as they have been on the mainland for years, and such as seen at Navarro, they regularly are out of their power armour. GarouxBloodline 00:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Ant2242/sandbox01#"Prime normals"/"Normals" 1) Oh I grasp the content. It was first used in FO1 by Unity. Please prove your claim about pre-War usage.

2) Yes, I do understand. I've left a non-link link to my references above.

Marie is not a "pre human" as Normals are not immune to radiation. Furthermore she is not "immune to radiation," she has some sort of radiation resistance and immunity to the TDC. I argue that she IS a mutation of some sort.

3) Airborne is still incorrect.

4) "The section on names must be removed and a brief section about the actual mutations with, maybe, a "Main template" to the "Mutations and their causes" page be linked. And a complete removal of the "Canonical Pure-humans" section."

5) That is the Enclave's concept of the term, and to a more broad sense the Anti-mutant conspiracy's concept.

--Ant2242 (talk) 00:02, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * No, you do not understand. You are still acting as if this article is labeling humans as either pure or, in your words, as "Normals," and your beliefs prove to me that you have little to no grasp of what is being covered here. This article discusses the origins of the pure human terminology - this article is not a way to discriminate against certain humans. You already called me a racist and a bigot back on Nukapedia - and you are showing me now, that you are still too tunnel-visioned to understand what I have attempted to accomplish with this article. This is further reinforced by your misunderstandings, as F.E.V. is a pre-War invention - I am not saying that successful test subjects were referred to as pure humans before the War - I am saying that the terminology is still relevant, as they also needed pure humans.
 * 1) You are going to have to be way more specific - I am not going to wade through your data dumps. As for Marie, you still are not understanding. Marie is not just immune to becoming a troglodyte, she is also shown to be entirely immune to radiation, and even has the unique ability to pass down her immunity through the use of booster shots. You saying that as a mutant, she cannot be a pure human, is again, further proof that you do not understand what is being discussed on this article.
 * 2) You do not know that. Irrelevant, anyways, as even if the theory is incorrect, in which it likely is incorrect, it is still a part of Fallout lore, and as such, needs to be covered by this encyclopedia.
 * 3) No. In regards to those that have been mutated, they were shown to be fully compatible with F.E.V., meaning that they were pure humans. All being a pure human means, is to be fully compatible with the F.E.V. - nightkin, psykers, and super mutants with an expanded intelligence, are all examples of compatibility. Sub-par results such as seen with cannon fodder super mutants, and the dumb-dumbs, or even the dead super mutants that come out dead, are all examples of non-pure humans being exposed to the F.E.V.
 * 4) You made absolutely no sense with that last argument. The Enclave has nothing to do with this terminology's origin - the Enclave have their own separate section, and it is made painfully clear that their bigotry is a separate concept to the actual term.

I am sorry that I am getting short with you. But I suffered months of you accusing me of being a bigot and a racist on Nukapedia, and you are a large reason as to why it took me over a year and a half to get an article written out over one of the most important aspects of lore in Fallout history, as you misrepresented my works to everyone, and convinced many users that I was trying to create a racist and bigoted article.

Now you are reviving the same tired arguments against me, after all of this time, and you have still shown me that you barely have a grasp what this article is covering. I am sorry if you are against this lore. I am sorry if you find this terminology as offensive to you. But I am really not in the mood to see content removed and censored, all for the sake of political correctness. GarouxBloodline 02:29, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

1) "Normals" is a term used in the Games. 1a) I know what this article is about, I am not the only trying to catalog people by their supposed pureness. Neither are you by the way. 1b) You claim that I am calling you a bigot. To the best of my memory I have not. 1c) You have yet to provide one source for the term in a pre-War context. My sandbox has multiple sources for these terms with their post-War context. 2) The centered text is a link if you copy-paste into the search box. The reason that I did not add a link directly is because I hope to soon delete that section once the references are properly added where appropriate. 2a) Stop saying that I don't understand. I do, she is not referenced as "pure human" nor is she passing down anything. Her mother with the mysterious science background created the Booster Shot from her daughter's radiation resistance. 3) Airborne FEV is impossible due to all the radiation and heat that a direct nuclear bunker busting bombardment would cause to the FEV in those tanks. Those tanks by they way are located on a level that was not broken open. The FEV that caused the herd immunity is referred to as "Mutant FEV" and comes from those escaped Raccoons. 4) In the Unity's concept the "pure human" is one that does not have damage/mutation by any factor to be mutated into their army. In the context of the Enclave it is one that does not have mutation of any kind. And finally in the concept of Normal it is a person not perceived to be mutated in any way. Thus "Normal" human as opposed to "Lumpy" mutant (both words are glossary terms). 5) See above.

I have not been disrespectful to you, nor have I convinced anyone your a bigot nor racist. Nor do the people of the Voldemort place take me seriously. They see me at best as a passive enemy. I'm sorry that YOU feel this way about me and perceive me to be some sort of PC neo-Igsoc [CENSORED].--Ant2242 (talk) 02:52, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) That is true, but that is a separate concept from the origin of the pure human term. Similar to the bigotry displayed by the Enclave, "Normies" was the bigoted term used by super mutants. The term in itself is not inherently bigoted - it is to refer to human that are fully compatible with the F.E.V. - nothing more, and nothing less.
 * 2) You might not remember, but you indeed called me a racist and a bigot back when we debated this article on Nukapedia. It was the reason why the first vote failed, actually, since you used chat to spread these rumours, with quite a few users then jumping onto the vote and making the same claims.
 * 3) I never said that the term was used pre-War. I said that the term is relevant to pre-War times, as pure humans were still needed for successful F.E.V. experimentation. Not sure why you keep saying otherwise: the only thing I said, is that this was a common designation seen from even before the War. Not that the term was actually coined from before the War.
 * 4) I have already provided a source on this article, where the Master confirmed that pure humans were those with relatively low radiation exposure - this would include immunity/resistance. Marie is a newborn baby, with no cancerous growths, and a confirmed immunity from both disease and local radiation. Her immunity was born from her genetic code, which is how booster shots were created. In this sense, Marie is the best example as to what a pure human is - with radiation having little to no effect on her, Marie would be fully compatible with the F.E.V.
 * 5) You do not get to say what is impossible. Fallout science is different from real-world science, and in way can you denounce something without irrefutable proof. Regardless, this article does not state that the LT's theory is correct. In fact, this article specifically states that the LT's theory is exactly that - only a theory. None of that matters - prima normals have a direct correlation with both Fallout lore, and the pure human terminology. As such, it deserves a place on this encyclopedia.
 * 6) I already have provided sources on the article, where the Master has made the only confirmation in regards to pure humans, being their levels of radiation exposure. Cancerous mutations are one thing - but mutations in general are a form of evolution - for instance, if I grow a 6th toe, that does not mean that I am a radioactive mess.
 * 7) Bigoted interpretations of the term's origin, are noted as separate ideologies, and are not mixed or confused with the underlying concept. The Enclave's ideologies are noted separately, and so are the super mutants' (although a bit more elaboration could be used in the SM' section).

I just do not understand why you are so staunchly against this article. Back on Nukapedia, you were indeed convinced that I was a racist and bigot - I have not forgotten the many chat debates that we had over this, where I just left because I was tired of being insulted.

At least the same is not happening here, but it still seems as if you do not grasp the purpose of this article. The pure human term, is an extremely important bit of Fallout lore, that can be seen in every game to date. It is a discernible trait, such as seen with the nightkin, the psykers, and unique cases such as Attis, Erkal, and of course the Master. These are all compatible results of exposure to F.E.V., that gained increased intelligence and biological functions - essentially forcing along the evolutionary chain in return for infertility.

I just wanted to make all of this clear that this article is not to state superiority or inferiority. Humans, both mutated and not, can be pure humans. The only exceptional trait needed, is to be dealt the right cards, in regards to radiation exposure/resistance. Evolution and/or adaptation, has little to nothing to do with the terminologies being discussed, outside of the effects seen due to exposure to the F.E.V. - but that is a topic specifically for our F.E.V. article. GarouxBloodline 03:15, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) Semi-derogatory and we are in agreement.
 * No, I was calling how they were perceiving the subject as wrong. As they were emphasizing the racism. Thus the article couldn't be created as they were debating it. It's why I have that whole section on the terms. Please don't imply that I can sway the opinions on the Voldemort wiki. They have no good opinion of me whatsoever.
 * 1) You having the section because they (Unity) needed people without genetic variables to fully transform a Wastelander into a Super Mutant has nothing to do with the pre-War background of FEV. Please name me One reference to this "common designation seen from even before the War."
 * 2) I have the Master's quotes on the subject on my Sandbox01 as well. They do not include that someone with "Radiation Immunity/Resistance" is a normal trait from non-mutated humans. Again there is no reference that Marie is a pure-human, she is constantly referred to as a "Miracle," and "the Cure." Sandra Kundanika being able to make a booster shot from what again I'm going to refer to as her daughter's mutation, does not prove Marie to be a "pure-human."
 * 3) A virus only living in tanks because it cannot live on its own is broken open by the shock of the bunker busting nuclear weapon. Then the intense radiation and heat kill everything directly exposed to them in the direct vicinity of the bunker. The bunker buster breaks open the first few levels leaving the FEV lab intact. The facility itself is in the middle of the desert with no life in the vicinity. Therefore the virus did not become airborne. The Bible does however mention the Raccons escaping, and the LT does mention a "Mutated FEV" causing a herd immunity in the population of Southern California.
 * 4) Radiation exposure and whatever mutations your body might have could also affect the FEV.
 * 5) Origins of the term and the factions whom use it are both of importance to the meaning. Only the latter is bigoted, because of the context of the factions that use it. Which thanks to internet fanboys is reinterpreted as the origin of the term.

I am not against this article, nor you. Never think otherwise, my friend. I understand the purpose of this article completely however one cannot separate the meaning from the context. For example this term "Prime Normal" has nothing to do with race nor the FEV's pre-War origins. As it is a literal portmanteau of prime and normal.--Ant2242 (talk) 11:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

even back when I was at Wikipedia. I will likely not be forgetting the events that transpired, any time soon.
 * 1) I am not going to argue that point any further - the time it took me to create this article, was the most frustrating time I have ever experienced in my 10+ years of editing on wikis -
 * 1) I do not need to name a reference, because a reference is already on the article. F.E.V. was a pre-War creation, and was used to create super-soldiers at Mariposa, in the same manner as the Master. They may or may not have coined the term - there is no telling who first coined the pure human term - but that does not detract from the fact, that what we know as pure humans, were needed pre-War, as well as now, for F.E.V. compatibility.
 * 2) You did not look very hard, then. It took me a grand total of 15 seconds to find the relevant reference on this article, showing where Richard Grey came to the realization that low radiation exposure was the key to F.E.V. success. Marie has an immunity, as proven with the booster shot - how deep this immunity is, is unknown, but the fact is there that Marie has little to no exposure to radiation poisoning. Whether you like it or not, Marie is a pure human. Marie is actually a unique pure human, because as the exception to the rule, she is a superior specimen. Thinking about it, it would probably be a waste to throw her in the vats. :P
 * 3) Once again: you do not get to decide what is, and what is not possible in the Fallout universe - a universe that borders on the absurd, consistently throughout each game. Regardless, you are still ignoring me when I am saying that its truth does not matter, because this article specifically maintains that the LT's theory is only a theory. As lore that directly correlates with the pure human term, it has a place on this article.
 * 4) Radiation exposure is not part of my argument. Mutations, while speculation to immediately assume them as caused by radiation, is also not really a part of my argument. The people that I have listed on this article as being pure human, or had once been pure human, are the people proven to have undergone proper F.E.V. evolution, or have been in identical situations as other confirmed pure humans, such as Harold or Richard Grey. This section likely does need more work - you might have noticed that I just cut a few characters the other day. But you trying to throw out the baby with the bath, is not impressing me much.
 * 5) The super mutants were bigoted, too - you cannot really argue that, after all that was seen in Fallout 1. Not just against humans, either. Hell, they are even bigoted towards each other, as seen in Fallout: New Vegas. In any case, I do not think we are really in that much of a disagreement with this point. What matters, is that this article details the separate ideologies, in a way that does not confuse them with the underlying purpose of the term.

After giving it a night of rest, I will apologize to you. When I saw that entire sections were just blatantly removed, I will admit that the memories of what I had to go through to get this article created, came flooding back, and I became beyond frustrated.

But I do stand staunchly behind the content's existence. There is always work to do on our articles, and this one is no exception, such as seen with the re-writes Tag and I did a bit back. But removing entire sections... that does not sit well with me. Especially when everything being removed, has direct correlation with this lore, and has a part in the evolution of the term itself, as it now exists in Fallout: New Vegas, and soon, Fallout 4. GarouxBloodline 17:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Addendum
Out of all of this, you have given me a good idea, at the very least, Ant. With the cases of compatible mutations being listed, it will do the article good to clearly elaborate on the mutations, and what can be discerned from them. I never really thought of that when creating this article - so I will be looking into that. GarouxBloodline 02:45, 23 August 2015 (UTC)