The Vault talk:Fallout 3 NPC overhaul project/Archive 3

Project ready to move ahead
A few things that might could use some input/feedback, and then a push forward on this project.

Bugs
The Fallout 3 bugs article is now reorganized. As a result, it will be easier for project participants to cull the Bugs sections of NPC articles.
 * Remove these kinds of bugs in particular:
 * Graphical glitches: heads spinning, guns upside-down, bodies stretching, etc. These are not unique to any one NPC.
 * Unexplained Aggro: All followers exhibit this, and we do not need to list it.
 * Any of the general or common bugs found on the main bug article page.
 * Megaton residents should still get a bug entry about their dying/going missing problem. See Andy Stahl for a good wording.
 * Let's not list infinite fingers/ears or infinite XP from Mister Sandman on NPC pages. Instead, note and link that the character is marked essential.
 * Do allow entries of usually excluded bugs if their presence can disrupt the NPC's role in a quest. See, for instance, Bryan Wilks.

Quotes
Argh! These sections bug me in particular. We really should only list quotes that are Does anyone know or have a collection of the shared quotes? That would be a handy resource.
 * unique to that NPC.
 * notable (i.e, even a unique way of saying, "Pineapple! Run!" is not notable in my book).
 * In general, we should only list a handful (5 is a good general upper limit rule of thumb) of quotes.
 * Let's remove the qualifiers from quotes (e.g., "when searching for an enemy" and "random"). When not incorrect, these are often not helpful info either.

How best to move ahead
I considered removing checkmarks from the progress tables, since I have found many pages marked complete which clearly are not. However, I think that would be demoralizing and counter-productive.

I think that participants should move ahead by tackling unchecked NPCs on the progress table. Continue to add checkmarks to tasks completed. I will go back through the completed ones, fixing where needed, and paying more attention to bugs and notes sections.

I do ask that the Peer Review column be taken a bit more seriously. A peer review is not something to be done in a moment or two. Placing a check in that column signals to the rest of us that the article is finished (as far as the project goes), so we probably won't pay any more attention to it. So, take your time on reviews, being picky, and fixing anything you find that wasn't done.

Feel free to respond below, voice any concerns for the project, etc. Let's make a good strong push toward finishing this important project!--Gothemasticator 10:10, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fingers and ears
Just a reminder. We are not listing fingers and ears on NPC pages. Their presence is dependent on the relevant perks, so are not present for everyone. The perk pages contain the relevant info.--Gothemasticator 21:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Finers and ears are now handled by the Interactions template. Please see further below.--Gothemasticator 00:19, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Responses to the above
I think adding new colums for the bugs, notes and quotes would make editing them a lot simpler and quicker. If this is done, a link to the main page for bugs should be added to the project page.--Vault4 20:44, January 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input! I'm not convinced, however, that adding more columns to our progress table will help. I think we need to


 * become more aware of these sections as we're editing (and the above content should help with that), and
 * when doing peer reviews, take care to read through these sections to make sure they have been reduced as appropriate.


 * --Gothemasticator 10:55, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Pictures of NPCs.
Which pictures are more appropriate, full body shots, a screen shot with menu disabled, etc. And is the standard screenshot size ok?
 * Porter is the one to ask about pics.--Gothemasticator 07:52, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

A-F Done
With two tiny exceptions: Dead Slave and Davis West both need pics for their infoboxes. Would someone with the GECK installed mind adding those? Thanks. Oh, and, when you do, please add a checkmark to the "Complete" column. Everything else on those pages is done.

A-F progress table entries on the project page are marked completed. Please direct your efforts to NPCs from later on in the alphabet.--Gothemasticator 09:26, January 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Davis West and his wife appear only as skeletons as far as I recall - an ingame picture would be better here than a GECK one (similar to Grady's). I've added the Dead Slave image. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * And Birdie94jb added a pic for Davis West. Thanks, Birdie!--Gothemasticator 22:45, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

G-L Proceeds Done
I have finished going through the G-L section of the progress tables. Whew! (EDIT: And I got Liberty Prime done just in time for it's appearance as the featured article! Yay!)

Help needed: John (Fallout 3)
John is missing a ref id.--Gothemasticator 07:15, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Relatedly, does John Henry Eden even have a ref id? If he does, his page is also missing the entry.--Gothemasticator 09:04, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Everything in FO3 has a ref ID :) I'll try to get these two; John's is a bit tricky because you have to get the encounter first (his ingame name is just "Wastelander", so the usual console dump with all FO3 IDs is a bit useless for him). On a related note, I think his article should be merged into the generic Wastelander one (on the mystical day where I finally get round to reworking the generic NPC pages). -- Porter21 (talk) 10:43, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Added Eden's. Don't think it makes sense to list John's; he's spawned "on-the-fly" when the encounter is triggered, so his ref ID should be different in each game. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Porter.--Gothemasticator 11:07, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Knick Knack, Knock Knock and Lucy
All three of these pages need better pictures. And, if you add them, would you please mark those pages finished on the progress charts? Everything else is done. Thanks.--Gothemasticator 07:51, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ph03n1x, for the Knick Knack and Knock Knock pics!--Gothemasticator 08:16, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Lug-Nut
Lug-Nut's infobox image has in-game text on the screen. Anyone got a good pic to replace it with? Thanks.--Gothemasticator 11:16, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Help needed: Peer Reviews
I did not check Peer Review or Done boxes on the progress table for articles on which I had done substantial work. I would appreciate it if some other participants would look over the work and check pages as reviewed and done. Thank you.--Gothemasticator 11:21, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Infoboxes: More guidelines
As per recent input by Nitty, let's begin paying attention to the following: Thanks, Nitty!--Gothemasticator 21:57, February 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actor: should be present and, if actor is not yet known, leave as "actor=" not as "actor=empty"
 * Alignment: should be present and, if unknown, leave as "alignment=" not as "alignment=empty"
 * Quest: should be present, filled in with appropriate quest or as "quest=empty" (Edited to incorporate the below.)
 * The "alignment" section is finicky, it requires a lowercase "a". It won't work with an uppercase "A". Make sure that it gets fixed. Also, I never said that about quests. "quest=empty" is a lot more nice-looking than "quest=None.", as it cuts down on superfluous sections. Nitty Tok. 21:46, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now that we have the Interactions template, which places a big red X next to quests, I agree with Nitty. The above changed accordingly. I just want the info that this NPC is not involved in any quest to be present somewhere in the article.--Gothemasticator 22:47, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Keeping the project going
Hi, and thank you to all project participants for continued work on NPC article pages! I'd like to point out in particular User:Shadowrunner56 who continues to make frequent helpful edits on NPC pages.

Grinding through the progress tables
Real life has kept me busy in the last week or so, and progress through the tables has slowed as a result. If I can fit it in this weekend, I might be able to start plowing through M-R. I encourage all participants to take up the torch as well. Let's get this project wrapped up (at least before New Vegas content overwhelms us!).--Gothemasticator 22:00, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Alphabetisation (or Alphabetization for you Americans out there)
If you like, I could alphabetise the list of participants of this project (whilst leaving Gothemesticator at the top, as leader). Hell, if you like, I could do it for all the other current projects as well. Hit me back on that. 5chiz0 18:03, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, go for it... wait isn't Nitty the leader? http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/5/58/User_AreYouGoingToEatThatNuke%3F_Game_image_4028.gif - Nuke Eater Blab 18:07, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

It says Goth is. One way or another, I did it. I guess I'll use it on the other projects as well. 5chiz0 19:16, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

ta-da! I have alphabetised the participant list of every project. Tedious, but it looks better. 5chiz0 20:05, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am indeed the project leader.--Gothemasticator 22:04, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Birthdates
Any mentions of the character's age, like in Bryan Wilks or Derek Pacion, should not be in the intro section but in the Background section, and converted to years (2277-the age), like I just did at Ernest Roe. Please also add the dates to the Birthdates article. Ausir(talk) 01:00, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

Checklist tables
How about adding it to the checklist tables? Ausir(talk) 10:35, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * So are we starting this over again? --Kingclyde 10:41, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously articles that were considered "done" now have to have this added. Perhaps Porter could use the bot to add empty interaction tables to every article. Ausir(talk) 11:07, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * That might be a good idea. Other than that, it looks like I may need to coffee. I need to start getting into this wiki again. --Kingclyde 11:12, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've unexpectedly been swamped with things keeping me busy in RL, but I can look into it on the weekend. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:43, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've had the bot add the following to all existing "Interactions" sections:

Effects of player actions

 * It's also adding new "Interactions" sections with the content above to all articles which had an "Inventory" section (but no "Interactions"). A couple of articles might be missed, but most should have empty interactions templates then. I've also added a new column to the progress tables. I haven't updated the project guidelines or the general character guideline yet; if someone could do that it'd be appreciated. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:28, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Since Nitty made me aware that the RTE removes empty fields upon saving the page, I've had the bot alter the default settings for the template. The fields are now set to "no" or "-" by default. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:21, March 14, 2010 (UTC)

"Protected"?
BTW, how about a field like "protected" or something, for whether attacking the character will turn a town/faction hostile? Ausir(talk) 11:24, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, as far as I understand the faction mechanics attacking any member of a faction will turn other members of that faction hostile, i.e. a field like that would basically be set to "yes" for almost every character. I think that the technical faction data should be listed somewhere but I think the infobox would be more suited for this. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:12, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Essential
"Essential" is currently a "yes"/"no" type field. Maybe it would make more sense to change it to a text field so info like "until XYZ" or "during quest X" could be included, as some characters are only essential for certain periods of time. You'd just have to settle on a couple of standard texts for the content. Opinions? -- Porter21 (talk) 12:44, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, especially for odd characters like Desmond Lockheart and Armitage. Nitty Tok. 19:33, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Updated template to allow for custom text in the "essential" field. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:04, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Landlord
I've switched Interactions FO3 to using the new meta-template for interaction charts today. This should only be an "under-the-hood" change with little consequence to users, but if you notice any bugs please let me know.

I've also added a new field to the template:. This is for NPCs who rent out rooms or beds, and the input should be the amount of caps they charge for the room/bed. I'll have my bot add it to the existing interaction tables. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:29, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Shrapnel
Could somebody please "unprotect" the Shrapnel NPC page? I'm trying to Peer Assess it, but I can't. 5chiz0 12:18, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've unprotected it. Please let us know when you've finished the peer review so another admin can apply the protection again (it's unfortunately necessary since some people have problems accepting Flak and Shrapnel are homosexuals). -- Porter21 (talk) 13:43, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, would you like a new image for the profile pic, without text? Ph03n1x 13:52, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just for the record (since you've already exchanged the image :)), all images with parts of the HUD or text in them should be replaced. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:12, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * If anyone does find NPC profile images with text or cursor overlay, it may be a good idea to tag the page with, as this will bring it to attention in two ways; the recent changes, and image needed pages.     phoenix       txt      data    00:45, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

New template for interactions sections!
Porter21 has created a brand new template for us! It creates a wonderfully useful table of information for our "Interactions with the player character" section. See Template:Interactions_FO3 for the copy/paste and some examples.

This will really help us consolidate those loose notes about mezzability and essentialness, as well as further help us keep control of quest info on NPC pages. Thanks, Porter!

We should all go ahead and start incorporating this new template in our NPC project work. It will take us all a little time to get used to it, but the result will be worth it.--Gothemasticator 08:49, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hail Porter.


 * Also, do we completely remove all the text in the Interactions section and just plug the box in, like I did on Ernest Roe? Nitty Tok. 21:44, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll probably have a little back-and-forth over this question as we start to implement the template. However, I think further text is only necessary when there is something notable to say about the NPC him/herself that is not covered in the relevant quest articles. Ernest Roe looks great as you have done.--Gothemasticator 22:44, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks. I'll get to filling in some background sections with my new handy-dandy guide. Nitty Tok. 22:53, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's a bit of previous discussion on the "box-only or not" subject. I'll just go ahead and copy/paste the relevant bits from Ausir's and my talk page. Feel free to voice your opinion and continue the discussion :) -- Porter21 (talk) 10:24, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Now that the above is in place thanks to Porter's bot, I've been getting a taste for how it's being used. And I think the template can be adjusted for the better. I'd like a little more feedback and discussion on this question.--Gothemasticator 09:48, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Related quests" has been encouraging people just to list the quests, which is redundant. I'd favor something more descriptive, like "quest involvement summaries."
 * Likewise, "other interactions" and "effects of the player character's actions" are redundant simply because no one can tell what belongs in one or the other. I favor "non-quest interactions" to solve the problem.
 * Take a look at A Wanderer and Abraham Washington to see it in action.
 * Please see James, where I have implemented the current template, incorporating info into all three subsections as they exist now. It works, but I still think merging the "Other intereactions" and "Effects" subsections is a good idea. It would not detract at all from the readability or clarity of James' page to merge the two. As it stands now, I think we're introducing a distinction without any real difference.--Gothemasticator 20:46, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with renaming the "Related quests" section. I'll have the bot make any change that is agreed on; I only used my own suggestions because I didn't have the time to wait for the result of a discussion before leaving.
 * Regarding "Other interactions" and "effects of player actions", I'd just like to explain how I meant these to be used before the discussion continues. "Effects of player actions" was meant to list all player actions which can have an effect on the status of the character in question, both directly and indirectly. It wasn't meant to be a third category of interactions (if that makes any sense), more an "additional info" section. I figured that listing these seperately would help to stop the quest interaction sections from becoming bloated, and that it would also allow us to list effects on the character which are not the result of a direct interaction with the character. As an example for the latter, the effect of the player's choice in The Power of the Atom on Moira Brown and the effect which the player choosing to kill Moriarty has on Gob were two examples I was thinking of. Neither of these are the result of the player interacting with the affected character directly, and I wouldn't consider Moira as being involved in The Power of the Atom. Just as a clarification.
 * On a sidenote, for the quest involvement section I'd personally prefer the "Quest name/link: Description of interaction" list format I used above instead of going into h4 headings and using main. Might just be personal preference, but I think it might help with keeping these sections brief and concise (plus h4 headings are hard to tell apart from h3 ones). -- Porter21 (talk) 18:23, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems I killed the discussion - I should really stop posting such walls of text :P Anyway, let me know how you want the headings to be changed and I'll set the bot on it. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:38, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Quotations template discussion
Please see Liberty Prime Sample and Jericho Sample to view new quotation templates in action, courtesy of Ph03n1x. Jericho's page shows a green-background template without an mbox above it, as well as displaying a red link to a non-existant quotes page. Liberty Prime sample shows a quotation template with a simple light gray border, a blue link to the quotes page, and an mbox present.--Gothemasticator 06:19, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Edited the above sandbox entries so there are now two different styles to see. My issue with the current quotations template (as far as possible implementation on FO3 NPC pages) is that without a border or background color it looks unanchored, while all the other formatting on the page is well-defined and sectioned (that's not jargon, just me trying to be descriptive). In any case, I'd appreciate a look at the gray border, white background Liberty Prime one. If enough people just don't want any change at all, I'll just drop the idea. (But I'm not quite ready to yet. :) )--Gothemasticator 18:44, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

I, personally, prefer the quotation template in use already, it looks more fluent.--Vault4 15:43, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I prefer the current one as well. Ausir(talk) 16:32, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, personally I like the less "boxy" current version. I guess it's a matter of personal taste, but I tried out various box versions when I last updated the template and never really liked any of them. Glad to see some other people daring to pick up template work though :) -- Porter21 (talk) 17:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Same here. Ausir(talk) 18:06, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great. Thanks for discussion. I'll consider it consensus to leave the current template as is. Cheers.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Quotes sections
'''Limiting quotes isn't working very well. People just add them back in, and it becomes a constant maintenance task.'''

What would y'all think about
 * adopting the FO and FO2 practice of one stylized quote at the top of the page,
 * doing away with the quotes section entirely,
 * and creating a new page: Fallout 3 character quotes?

See Liberty Prime for a look at what this would look like. --Gothemasticator 08:45, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I get the impression that people see the quotes list, find it incomplete or know of a "good one" that's missing, and feel compelled to complete and/or add it. Look at the Super Mutant page for example, and I know the Jericho and Liberty Prime pages are commonly regarded by quote-adders as being deficient. The use of the term Quotes, in itself, for the section gives no indicator to an editor about the level of detail required regarding inclusion; in fact it would suggest that a complete reference is a potentially desired outcome. In comparison, you have Notable loot, which automatically suggests a special and smaller subsection than what would be contained in Loot. The stylised quote is a nice technique that captures an aspect of the character, but doesn't offer the same depth of diversity, so a character quotes page would provide the quote-adders with an outlet for their expression and input, although I suspect there would be a substantial page resultant :)   phoenix     txt    xp   10:01, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have made two examples of a course of action we could take, check them before deciding what your opinion is: Liberty Prime Quotes and Vault 87 Super Mutant Quotes. Enjoy--Vault4 12:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gothemasticator's proposed idea is a strong way forward. If this way is decided to be used, I will happily enjoy making the quotes pages.Vault4 12:33, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

I have also cracked the code of how to make the quote pages easy to find, see List of Fallout 3 NPC Quote pages.Vault4 12:49, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

It has occured to me that it is only a subset of NPC pages that have the runaway quotes sections, mainly Followers, Liberty Prime, the super mutants, and... (any others? or is that it?). All other NPC pages I'm pretty sure could have the Quotations template added and the Quotes section removed without hassle or argument. See James, for example. (Although a better quote could be chosen.) Even though he talks a lot in this game, no one has been inclined to fill up his quotes section. I think it's because the lure of the quotes sections is the one-liners.

What I think this means is that it wouldn't be too bad to have a quotes page for each of the followers, plus Liberty Prime and the super mutants.--Gothemasticator 18:12, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think one of the factors that influences this is the very limited custom dialogue added to most characters. An example is the concise quotes section on the Brotherhood Outcasts page - many characters or factions have even less. Battle factions that have a varied verbal capacity also tend to be recorded - super mutants and robots for example. Raiders, Talon Company Mercs and the Enclave seem to have been left out.


 * Robot class pages of mention:
 * Mister Gutsy - Protectron - Robobrain - Sentry Bot - Mister Handy


 * Some other pages featuring quotes, that while not being of excessive size, incorporate ones of dubious notability - Pitt Raider for example.   phoenix     txt    xp   00:18, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

Should I create any more quote pages like I already have then. if I should, which ones?--Vault4 20:09, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Vault4, I would hold off until we can discuss this further. The two pages you created give us a pretty good look at what one method of doing this might look like. But I want to think about it some more, and I'd really like the discussion to go on long enough to hear from everybody who cares and to hopefully reach a consensus.--Gothemasticator 04:15, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with phoenix in that a clearer section heading might help. I'm not sure we really need separate quote pages; the purpose of the quotes is to illustrate the character in question and a few quotes are enough for that in all cases I can think of. In that vein, I'd also agree that quotes of dubious notability should be culled - quotes like "Hell yes" or "Take that" do little to illustrate a character. Beyond those notable quotes, I don't really see the value of having complete quote listings. We could also list every tree in the Capital Wasteland, but there wouldn't be much value in that either :-)
 * That aside, having one especially characteristic quote at the top of the page seems like a decent idea to me. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * My feeling on including a quotations template at the top of an NPC page is that it would be redundant with the Quotes section. My desire to have the template at the top was tied to the idea of removing the Quotes section altogether. So, unless there's a great desire to begin including the template, I won't move ahead with that idea either.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

To sum up and make sure I understand the consensus here, are we agreed that
 * Porter will create a bot to rename the Quotes sections. "Notable quotes" all right with everybody? Better ideas?
 * We can delete the Liberty Prime quotes and Vault 87 super mutant quotes pages, reincorporating the notable ones back into the main articles. (Vault4, thanks for putting those together! It helped this discussion a lot to see the idea in action!)
 * Gothemasticator will update project guidelines to reflect new notability standards.
 * We can all then cull quotes and link users to the guidelines for educational purposes.--Gothemasticator 20:42, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've merged the quote pages back in yesterday when I was a general cleanup spree (still have a patrol backlog of ~100 new pages :/). The only suggestions I'd have for the name of the quote sections would be "memorable quotes" or "unique quotes", although "notable quotes" isn't bad either. Otherwise I'd agree with your summary. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:41, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I suggest renaming all FO3 "Quotes" sections to "Notable quotes." Then, we can document what counts as notable either on the project page here or perhaps on the layout guidelines page. This calls for a bot-user.--Gothemasticator 15:26, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll do it once my bot has finished adding the "rent" parameter to the interaction tables. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:30, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Porter.--Gothemasticator 15:48, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Should be finished. Let me know if the bot missed some instances. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:45, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

What's up with all the extra sub-titles?
Take Willow, the ghoul sentry outside the Museum of History, as an example. There are "Related quests" and "Other interactions," I don't know if these are a part of this Fallout 3 NPC overhaul project, but regardless of that, it's fairly useless to add those sub-titles since they serve no purpose. I've also seen several minor, named NPC's with those and other sub-titles, where nothing is written. Is there really any point at all in having those sub-titles when they serve no purpose for a ceratin NPC? I understand they might serve some purpose for some other named NPC's, but I just don't see the point in adding those sub-titles if they aren't needed for a certain specific NPC. So like I said, is there really any point at all in having those sub-titles when they serve no purpose for a certain NPC? Sadist King 13:28, April 15, 2010 (UTC)Sadist King


 * Please see above, it explains where these are coming from. They were added by bot along with the new interactions template. The plan was that they'd be removed from the articles where they're not needed; they were only inserted to facilitate restructuring the "Interactions" section. There's indeed little use in having empty sections. -- Porter21 (talk) 07:14, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

So if I see any of the sub-titles that serves no purpose, I just might as well remove them? Sadist King 13:37, April 16, 2010 (UTC)Sadist King


 * If there is no content in the "Results of player actions" section which would belong in any of the other sub-sections, sure. The template and the headlines were inserted before the previous content of the section, so it's possible that some stuff which should be in one of the other sub-sections is in there. Otherwise, feel free to remove unneeded headlines. -- Porter21 (talk) 19:09, April 19, 2010 (UTC)