Forum:Policy on totalitarian symbols

Now, given the recent incident concerning Luckmann and ultimately his removal, I believe it's high time we estabilished a concrete policy as to how totalitarian regimes and their symbols should be treated on the Vault. It's kind of an issue at the present, as several users have chosen (being total historical ignoramuses) to have a hammer and sickle as their avatar.

I propose an absolute zero tolerance policy for this kind of behaviour and content. The hammer and sickle stands for crimes greater in scale than atrocities commited by the Third Reich, so it sends a very bad message. A message that The Vault accepts symbols of death and prejudice, as long as their authors have a good PR department.

I, for one, am not going to tolerate open displaying of the hammer and sickle on the wiki. Yes, I am biased, it's hard not to be when the communist regime cost my country more than the Nazis ever did. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 22:19, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I simply cannot argue with that logic. EBTalk 22:22, August 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the best course of action is to keep the symbology and the ideologies of all of this wikis contributors firmly in their off-wiki lives. There is a large rupture forming due to various things, such as the use of Aryan and the communist hammer and sickle, the Swastika, and unfortunately for you Tag, other ideological symbols, even down to the support of a democratic party. I know that anarchists have done very little wrong - and by that I mean the real educated ones, not those with a desire for a guise to cause trouble - but that too is a political ideology that some may disagree with for whatever reason. If a zero tolerance policy is to be adopted, I'm afraid that it should be zero tolerance and all encompassing. I agree with what Tag has said above, and I feel that perhaps one should go as far as to make sure all avatars are kept to simplistic and 0% controversial guidelines. Aryan is a term used by neo-Nazi's to show themselves as 'superior' to other 'inferior' races, and as such is a form of racism. I am also aware that it was an Indian tribe, but I have seen the person involved in their own video due to a link on their talk page from Cartman! and they most certainly are not from an Indian tribe. I do not enjoy offending people, which I may of just done, and thus I apologise, but I will not apologise for trying to preserve the community here. The term should not be allowed, and neither should the symbology. To insure that this does not occur again, however, I feel that it is fair to remove all political, ideological and perhaps even religious affiliations, and instead metaphorically replace them with an affiliation to the Vault. Tag is a prime example of a user who finds these offensive and so I cannot see why our users should have to tolerate these things. I have spoken to Luckmann in chat, and he seems nice enough, but I do not think that he should have brought his ideological views here. As for communism, and I stress that this is communist symbology, that too should be left out as it may offend some users. However, I feel that you too Tag should, to win this debate, leave your own symbology out and therefore prove that it is not necessary and that users can easily go without it. Perhaps a list could be compiled at the base of this discussion to be implemented into a new avatar banning policy? Lastly, excuse my lack of paragraphs. Thanks for your time and I welcome the criticism I am inevitably going to receive. TheGuardianCalligraphy.pngGuardianoftheWastesTag.png

Define "Totalitarian Symbols". Its easy to say "Swastica" I suppose, but there are some times when thats okay (such as when in the hindu context). If its in the Nazi context, then I agree it has no place here.

Hammer and Sickle.... I don't think its immediately fair to say that it stands for a totalitarian Regime. I don't agree that its a symbol of death, has death been caused in the name of what that symbol represents, yes, but we'd have to ban a lot of other symbols too there, including many national flags.

A lot of "totalitarian Regimes" are in the muslim sphere of influence, which counts the Crescent moon as its symbols, do we ban the moon?

I think this needs more thought before a blanket ban worded like this is agreed.

Agent c 00:13, August 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow, this is a tricky one. Where do you draw the line? As Agent C has stated, almost any symbol can be construed as a signifier of atrocities. I could put an Australian flag up that reminds certain people of my country's terrible treatment of legitimate refugees. That said, regardless of any actual historical basis for an interpretation of a sign, that interpretation is still valid. If someone views a square, for example, as indicative of an atrocity, then who are we to tell that person that their interpretation is invalid or meaningless? --Johnny Trash (Talk) 03:04, August 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * The list should be divided into two groups: absolutely banned and banned depending on circumstances. In the first case, any symbol used in a non-Fallout related way will be removed: first by politely asking the user, or by force, if the user does not comply. In the second case, after it is reported by a user, the matter will be investigating and a ruling made by The Vault's administrators (at least two), as to whether or not it should be removed. That way, crap such as Nazi symbols, Soviet symbols or various neofascist sigils will be removed instantly, while other symbols that may be potentially offensive, can still be removed, if the administrators consider their use offensive. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 06:02, August 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, this seems wisest Tag. However, a few more points to consider Agent and Ishotamaninnewreno. Religious symbols should be banned on the wiki. They have no place here except in a few specific articles. A lot of problems still exist between religions and there is no reason for a religious argument to break out. As for national flags, that would seemingly go into the depending on circumstances, mainly for the fact that people have no choice as to which country they were born into, but the choices regarding religion, ideology and (don't forget) terminology. As for the Swastika, it has nothing to do with Hinduism. Hitler even admitted himself that he thought it up whilst doodling, and thus it has no bearing as a claim. In fact, I would go as far as to say that a Hindu may be offended by what you have said.
 * On to the committee idea:
 * It should not be a group of admins, you guys have enough on your plate, but a mix of permanent volunteers - admins and non - who do not have a great bias such as many users have admitted they have and who are active and hard working.
 * It should consist of a group of five, so that there will be a decent discussion before a vote, which will go one way or another.
 * Also, by keeping the same group it lets them gain experience in it, and thus allows swifter more rational decisions to be made.
 * TheGuardianCalligraphy.pngGuardianoftheWastesTag.png
 * Perhaps we should be considering instead a "No real world Religion or politics" rule as is present on the Bethesda Forums. That would cover the symbols, and other potential problems.  Agent c 13:24, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a much better option than adding another layer of moderation. Complex problem solved by a simple solution. It might annoy some nationalistic types, but I believe its a worthy trade off. Guardian, I'm not sure of your source for those claims. Check out wikipedia for a more comprehensive examination of the origins of that particular symbol. --Johnny Trash (Talk) 13:37, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Guardian, Perhaps you should also look at the Jainist page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism Notice something familiar in the top right corner? Even if Hitler independently came up with the Swastika the symbol has its own history going back thousands of years and has been independently "created" by many cultures.   Agent c


 * You guys have got me pegged wrong it seems. That was a genuine claim by Hitler. Whether or not the statement was genuine of itself is questionable, and I for one think that it probably wasn't, or he made a link subconsciously. What I was saying is that relating a holy, and to many, sacred symbol to the Nazi regime may be offensive to some. This is not to the point, however, and is seemingly an in3evitable diversion when discussing the Swastika. Furthermore, Agent C, if you had read my posts, this was the goal that I was getting at, banning real-world ideological representation or discussion. I can find you the quote if you wish, but that would be an arduous task I would rather not do, and seen as we are actually arguing in favour of the same points, I would rather I was trusted. It was hardly the main cusp of my argument, and so let us continue to discuss the issue at hand. TheGuardianCalligraphy.pngGuardianoftheWastesTag.png

I agree fully with Guardian, symbols representing any kind of political or religious ideology shouldn't be allowed on the Wiki unless in related articles, for example "Christianity", and we should have an independent jury of users that regulate the "border icons", so to speak. I think that a country's flag should be allowed, though, as not allowing some counties, whilst allowing some, is discriminatory. Having a box that says "This user is ---" with the appropriate flag is fine, as the user in question is simply stating his/her country of origin or residence.

As I was told by Gothemasticator " The issue is not of merely giving or taking offense. People choose to be offended by all sorts of things, and that is beyond any of our control. The issue is whether or not a post is in and of itself racist. /.../". This was during the Luckmann incident. This perfectly coincides with what we've "established" so far. Away with the political and religious iconography, as most of those things are hateful and racist/discriminatory in their own right, whilst a nation is nothing else than a patch of land and in some cases some puddles of water. Scar: "Say 'ello to my little friend!" 19:03, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

I think this whole ban thing is just too much. OK, you shouldn't have to be discriminated against or anything like that but Censoring things that are not being used in that context is wrong. Furthermore, the user/s that decides what is and what isn't offensive might not be impartial. This would be difficult to regulate and possibly construe the deciding users as biased or being offensive and discriminatory by which things they block. It's a slippery slope gentleman.. JimmyDreznaut017 22:50, August 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hence the two lists. Fascist, nazi, soviet, defamatory or similiar symbols should be kept off the wiki in any case. Symbols of other, less murderous ideologies would be indexed on the second list "to be kept to a reasonable minimum". Note that this isn't aimed to stifle political discussion, which is healthy. The purpose of the list would be to limit flamebaiting by displaying symbols closely associated with crimes and hate. The H-n-S is one of such symbols. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 23:29, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats the tricky part though Tag, determining what counts as a muderous ideology. Throughout history almost every ideological formation has been involved in despicable acts. Its all about perspective, what one person sees as a less muderous ideology could well be the Great Enemy to another. --Johnny Trash (Talk) 00:30, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed. A lot of people have been murdered in the name of Christianity or Islam, for example. And most other major religions, probably. Ausir(talk) 04:31, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * A good point Ausir. However, as much as I am a carnivorous atheist, I'm skeptical about banning religious symbols, because religions don't have hate built into the system as much as Soviet communism, nazism or fascism do. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 07:15, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you on that. I think it does, more so than communism does. Ausir(talk) 09:49, August 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * We don't think the Hammer and Sickle should be banned. The Hammer and Sickle is not the symbol of Communism, it is the symbol of Socialism.  As such, it has been used by many nations on their coins, for instance, (look at the Austrian 100 Kronen of 1923-4 or the small  change minted by Chile in the early 20th century).  Neither country has ever been communist.  Meanwhile, there are communist countries, such as Cuba, who don't use the hammer and sickle.  While the merits of socialism can be debated,  it is not a murderous ideology.  The same goes for the Fasces, long the symbol of the old Roman Republic, (and used by the United States, as well, as evidenced by older public buildings and the famous 'Mercury' dime).DarthOrc 05:03, August 24, 2011 (UTC)DarthOrc
 * By that logic, we shouldn't ban the swastika either, as it's a symbol with a history longer than the Third Reich. The fact that country X used it in a non-violent context in early 20th century doesn't mean squat when another country murdered milions under it a few years later. I also wager that a majority of the people displaying the HnS are promoting Soviet communism, rather than Chile or Austrian kronen, which is why I propose to ban such symbols. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 07:12, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * The hammer and sickle is still in use in China, by the way. Ausir(talk)


 * And when did China last invade any part of Europe? BTW, the hammer & sickle are on Jingwei's Shock sword, should we ban it, also?DarthOrc 04:36, August 25, 2011 (UTC)DarthOrc

I disagree with any ban of religious and political emblems. My issue with Luckmann was racism, pure and simple. The use of the word "aryan" in the context of race equates to a racist statement. It is intended that way and universally understood that way. It is exactly equivalent to to saying, "I hate all non-whites." Racism is already not tolerated on this wiki. I simply acted on existing policy and practice.

Further, I contend that the use of the swastika, in any other context than scholarly, is universally understood as a racist statement. I would also remove swastika images and block users accordingly were I to encounter a swastika. FYI, Luckmann was not displaying a swastika on his pages.

I do not believe that any other nationalist emblems have the same universal and unmistakeable message as the nazi ones do. This is not a measure of the severity of atrocities, it is simply an understanding of the unique function of nazi symbolism in contemporary discourse.

Finally, I think that one can draw a clear line regarding nazi symbology based on our practice of not tolerating racism - without beginning a slippery slope toward intolerance of the expression of religion and nationalism. I believe that any such ban as proposed in this forum would indeed start us on that slippery slope.--Gothemasticator 15:16, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no slippery slope. It's a very invalid argument. The point of the proposed change is to keep extremely offensive stuff off the wiki. I find the hammer and sickle extremely offensive, for reasons I've outlined. I find the comment "does not reflect the Wiki policy" equal to "It's okay to use symbols standin for mass murder, as long as they have a good PR department". Furthermore, if the practice on the wiki bans racism, surely it also bans class-based hate? http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 20:24, August 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I fully agree with Gothemasticator here. I just don't see all this as necessary. Ausir(talk) 20:36, August 24, 2011 (UTC)

So, both sides have made arguments. Both have good points. How will this be decided and by whom? I mean, I really cant see this argument going on for much longer without going into a repeat of our respective reasons and possibly turning into something worse than just a debate. Please be fair. JimmyDreznaut017 01:06, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest a 3 way community poll to select a prefered option

Option 1 :No change, this isn't required; any actions should be based on context alone and on a single-case basis.

Option 2: Symbols of clear hate are banned - this would be Swastika in the Nazi style, KKK-Style hoods, etc. List to be publicly posted in line with other policies and other symbols to be considered for addition on community vote.

Option 3: No Religious/Political discussion except as it applies in game (The "Bethesda Forums" option)

Followed by a "Yes/No" vote once an option is selected to formally ratify it.

Agent c 01:24, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

I would prefer an option as suggested above: Symbols representing any kind of political or religious ideology shouldn't be allowed on the Wiki unless in related articles. I hadn't realized that the hammer and sickle were as offensive to many people as the swastika was, but now that I know I really would like to keep it off the wiki. Hate speech is also unacceptable, which I think the policies make clear. However I don't think the free and respectful exchange of ideas should be censored in forums, whether on-topic as it relates to the games or off-topic.-LawdyMissMaudy 21:34, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

A poll would be the best route. I just cant accept that these symbols be observed only as offensive while thier pasts be overshadowed, its sad really. JimmyDreznaut017 02:50, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

Though this deserved a bit of a bump, in relation to another thread; and perhaps a thickening out of my previous comment. I had the following ideas for a potential wording... Does anyone else have any other ideas, or could suggest improvements? Agent c 18:58, September 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * ("No Hate speech/symbols" option) The Vault welcomes people irregardless of political belief, creed, colour, race, species, mutation, FEV status, or extent of Ghoulification; however all users are asked to bear in mind that other users come from a variety of backgrounds and cultures, and things that may be mundane or normal for you may be seen as insensitive or offensive. Before posting we ask all users to think carefully about what they are posting and consider if it could be taken the wrong way.  If you see something that offends you, please contact an Administrator who will evaluate your request.  If you are asked to remove content, and you disagree with reasoning for this, you can appeal this to a bureaucrat but we would ask you to remove the content pending their decision.  A non exclusive list of topics which we request you to refrain from posting to include: (list to be decided later).


 * ("No Poltiical/Religion discussion" option). The Vault welcomes people irregardless of political belief, creed, colour, race, species, mutation, FEV status or extent of Ghoulification; however all users are asked to bear in mind that other users come from a variety of backgrounds and cultures and would like your help in ensuring that the vault remains as open and welcoming as possible. To aid in this, we ask all users to refrain from discussing political or religious matters except as they appear within the fallout games.  We also ask all users to remember that other users come from  variety of backgrounds and cultures, and things that may be mundane or normal for you may be seen as insensitive or offensive.  Before posting we ask all users to think carefully about what they are posting and consider if it could be taken the wrong way.  If you see something that offends you, please contact an Administrator who will evaluate your request.  If you are asked to remove content, and you disagree with reasoning for this, you can appeal this to a bureaucrat but we would ask you to remove the content pending their decision.--Agent c 18:58, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

No new policies are needed. Our current policies are strong enough to allow admins to deal with abuses on a case-to-case basis. Anything like Agent C has proposed would serve only to create more problems and more arguments. --Gothemasticator 15:02, September 20, 2011 (UTC)