Forum:Achievements - post-trial vote

Some time ago, Wikia introduced an achievement badge extension, which we have had activated on this wiki for a month now.

The goal of achievements is to help encourage people to make more edits and contribute to the wiki. They also help brand new people get a feel for what they can do on the wiki by showing them various challenges. Awards are only available for logged-in users, so they’ll help encourage people to log in when they’re making edits. You can see an achievement leaderboard here. Badges that you've earned and a list of the challenges that are available for you will also show up on your user page. Admins are able to customize the names and pictures used in the achievement awards so that they fit a given community.

Given that the results of the original vote were not very conclusive, I decided to enable achievement badges on the wiki for a 1-month trial. Now that it's been a month since they were activated, let's vote.

Obviously, as many of you have noticed, we have had quite a few achievement boosters that tried to exploit the system by making meaningless edits. However, they were usually quickly warned by our admins and then banned if they continued to do it. It was also more prevalent in the beginning than it is now, so I don't think achievement boosting is that big of a deal.

One area that I think achievements turned out to be extremely useful has been helping out the wiki's projects. The Fallout 3 and New Vegas creatures projects, as well as the Fallout 1 and 2 characters project have seen a lot of improvement over the last few weeks. Most of the creature pages are now nearly perfect and fully compliant with the latest guidelines. Even for longtime users that were against achievements in the first place, they seem to have helped direct their efforts to specific projects that need attention.

Of course, the above is just my opinion and you're free to disagree. Feel free to voice yours below! Ausir(talk) 23:23, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

Vote - should we keep achievements?

 * Yes - Trolly Polly Olly 22:21, May 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * No - Frankly, I didn't see a difference in the prevalence of achievement boosters either in the beginning, middle. or the end. My stance is the same as it was to begin with: achievements foster useless edits, not real contributions. Yuri ( Leave a message! ) 23:26, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes - they have been very helpful as far as projects are concerned. Ausir(talk) 23:31, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * - They're fun, but I've noticed an increase in useless pages. --valoopy_sig.jpg  Valoopy 23:40, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes BcastilloI definetly think they help people to edit
 * Yes I like the achievements and, like Ausir said, seem to motivate people in helping on projects. Shadowrunner(stuff) 23:42, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewied (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * Yes It's pretty gratifying when you see that little green icon in the bottom left corner that tells you you made a difference. However, some people (who will remain unnamed) seem to be making edits just for the sake of getting a new badge. Kastera (talk) 23:43, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Until there is a clear set of rules in place to govern achievements, I cant say yes to it ongoing. It does have it benefits, but only when there is control, otherwise the negatives are a lot more prevalent than the advantages. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 23:46, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Ohno itsthecopz
 * Doesn't really matter to me RJT 23:49, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * No Honestly not motivating me any more than before. The good feeling you get after you help out The Vault should be enough to keep sincere edits coming. Now it seems there are far more edits of how a phrase is worded, even if the new one states the same thing. --LL9 TalkToMe 23:50, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes The acheivements are a nice carrot on a stick to get people involved and it makes it easy to see who is actually helping out and who is doing nothing at all. People do tend to make pointless edits inorder to boost there score. However, As much as I hate to admit it acheivements have made me edit and help out more so that is why I think they should stay.--RAM 23:52, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Dustin81 23:53, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes MickeyHikaruMouse 16:57 (4:57 pm), May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Achievements have been an encouragement for me to make more edits and the project related ones have increased my involvement in areas of the wiki where I wouldn't have otherwise bothered. It's unfortunate that the measurement is based on edit counts and not the quality and quantity of work per edit, but there's no easy solution there. --Actreal 23:59, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Gothemasticator
 * Yes I believe they've increased activity on pages, and projects. The number of useless pages has increased, but they're easily dealt with Blazingsand 00:04, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No It is a fun little gimmick at first but really unnecessary.--Rhonda 00:09, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * {Yes}}{ Ryker61
 * Yes most people love achievements like this and I've always wondered why there were not any in the first place on this wiki, so why not?--BattleBen 00:20, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Fousto Keeping the achievements is completly beneficial to everyone. It prompts people to edit and add to the wiki and motivates friendly competition.
 * Brfritos 00:37, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I was away for most of the trial period, so my ability to judge the pros and cons is somewhat limited. For projects they seem to have been beneficial, but I believe some of the general ones encourage unwanted behaviour. -- Porter21 (talk) 00:47, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Kingclyde See discussion below.
 * I don't really pay much attention to them. I gain more badges reverting bad edits and vandalism than doing actual edits it seems. Great Mara 00:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No There has been a large increase in useless and pointless facts, pages and information from what I've seen, I would move to scrap the achievements altogether. Honestly I don't feel any more motivated because of the achievements, I've always edited anywhere I thought was appropriate and I don't plan on editing more than I think I should the get what are basically the equivalent of brownie points. Cloaked Evil
 * Again see discussion below, may change my vote when I feel ready. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 01:00, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No because i feel that it could lead to people making multiple edits on a page just to have more achievements BigDogW 01:02, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * meh Rattigan
 * YesKeep any information that is even remotely marginally useful. Dbbolton 01:08, May 18, 2011 (UTC) misunderstood vote. Ausir(talk)
 * Yes Achievements motivate me to be more active and explore other functions of Wiki that I never utilized prior.&quot;Grampy-bone be doing da killin&#39; right now.&quot; - Sulik 23:53, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes It has given many people motivation to add relevant photos, fix/alter pages for the better, etc. --Geerardr 23:51, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * No I'm still a pretty new person to the vault (used it for reference for years, sign up a month ago) and to be quite frank, the achievements seem to be a reward-less gimmick to encourage people to make useless edits. The only edits I make are to actually provide info or make some grammatical fixes. Not having these achievements I believe will upkeep the high standards of The Vault and prevent people from changing or adding information that should otherwise not be touched --Cc99910 01:27, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No - I personally think people are getting way too competitive in getting all of them and they are making useles edits. eg: a person which doesn't have Fallout 2 will add a random link on a random Fallout 2 character page just to get the achievement. I personally thinks this is making the wiki worse. Fallout_-_New_Vegas.pngMario479 01:16, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes They are usefull pages, especially if someone is having a hard time getting the achievment misunderstood vote. Ausir(talk)
 * Yes Kat M. Monti i I kind of like them. I feel like I've been given a prize for being awesome every time I get one.
 * Yes CoffeeShopFrank I think we should keep the badges.  They encourage people to contribute to the wiki, but, like what was mentioned earlier, people make meaningless edits just to get more points.  I hope my edits weren't considered meaningless, because most of my edits involved correcting misspellings.  Those edits aren't considered meaningless, are they? --CoffeeShopFrank 02:00, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No I can't say that they've been much of an influence one way or another on me personally, but I don't really have a problem with them. What tips it to a mild no vote for me are the points and - especially - rankings parts of the system. I think badges can give people constructive ideas on new ways to contribute (good); however, rankings can at best encourage lower-quality, higher-quantity contributions in the name of meaningless competition (bad), and at worst discourage people from contributing at all due to starting out at a low ranking (also bad). --HunterZ 02:07, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Birchman34 02:09, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I've enjoyed them as sort of mile-markers for the various edits I've made, even though the special project ones don't really entice me to focus on the specific areas more, as I tend to have a personal goal that I like to work towards. I also liked having started editing regularly a bit after the achievements were introduced, yet still climbing the ranks to fairly high up. And I liked getting the Nuka-cola addict, as well as 2 luck awards almost back to back. =P Canti-sama(talk) 02:23, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No I feel the same way about 'cheevmenets here as I do 'cheevements on games. Get them the hell out.
 * Yes This is a simple question yet it allows for a complex answer; With the addition of Achievements we have indeed seen a large number of pointless Pages/Posts being made throughout the wikia, however, the number of good pages/posts being definitely out weight the bad, so therefore i think that the achievements should be kept on bored, however assign a more Admins to keep track of the bad posts being made. Another idea would be to make all of the Achievements 'Secret' So you can only see what they are once they have been unlocked, this will therefore stop people from achievement boosting and in turn hopefully cut down the amount of pointless posts/pages being mad. =) Walleyyyyy
 * Yes As someone who's done a fair bit of editing on Wikipedia but very little here, I do personally feel encouraged by the achievements. Without them, I think I would be less likely to fix mistakes I find in articles and just go back to playing the game instead. ArrowHead
 * Yes Even though I've made my account a few days ago, when I saw the achievements it made me want to be a useful user, maybe I don't know a whole lot about details, but i'm really into The Vault and Fallout and the achievments are a great idea. Nimvalz 04:27, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yesi think its a good idea. makes you want to make improvements to hoard achievement points
 * They're neat and give some incentive to participate however I think we could do without them just as well (or better) because real merit usually speaks for itself (and doesn't require flashy flare). I dunno, this is a hard one.  I suppose my final vote would be to keep them, but I won't be heartbroken otherwise.  --Demon971 05:06, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * my views are mixed on this topic. I believe that people like a challenge and rewards for their work, but also these badges havve caused some people to start putting "nonsense edits".Nemerian
 * Yes I think that they should stay, they are kinda neat I suppose, but remove the automatic facebook updates. That is just annoying. Xarxes 06:30, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes  I personally don't mind the achievement points, although i adminit that it might work well on some wikis and not on others. On those good examples, it helped to bring more people in and the admin are able to add a appropriate theme to them Sclera1
 * Yes Paladin LJ Yes, because it will encourage people to help out
 * CourierOne Neither like nor dislike and haven't really noticed them, if you like them then try to get them if you don't then just ignore them.  Simples.
 * Yes It seems like a good idea to get more people to participate in editing, but it can also make people more competitive and therefore we might see more incorrect information.
 * Yes http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!)
 * Yes Achievements have definitely boosted contributors activity. As for senseless edits and vandalism, I think the situation will settle down just like after release of Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas. veryblackraven Talk
 * No - It will only promote the input of garbage data and turn this forum into one in which trash must be sorted through. --Cabrone 05:19, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes -James Jr 08:18, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Meh, they're good since they encourage people to edit but I think a lot of people will make pointless edits just to get up the scoreboard. CHIEF Talk to me 09:59, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes It offers somewhat fun to the editing of the vault.
 * No This was a good idea until i almost got blocked for helping. these badges would just get users in trouble, they are also a big distraction.---4TimestheSteak 10:52, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No I just find them unnecessary; a nice idea, but with little use and not worth the time or energy.
 * Yes I love them. They make editing like playing a game. They definitely helped for me. Shame about all the users being mistaken of being boosters though. gears of duty
 * Yes Vaultboy99 - They are fun.
 * No - Frankly, achivments are quity useless, the wiki was much better before there were achivments.--Scavenger of the Wasteland 13:26, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * On the one hand they encourage edits on the other hand they encourage more frivolous edits by people just to get the badge YKOF 13:58, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * No They are unique here on this wikia, which I like, but those who have done 400,000 edits? It would be nice if they could auto-update them to suit veteran members. If they can do that, then I would gladly give this a yes. Big McLargeHuge 14:59, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes - while they don't really apply to older members who've already made significant contributions, they're a good way of encouraging new users to help the wiki. The fact that they might encourage useless edits is just an inconvenient but minor reality. We have to take the good with the bad here, and I think the good outweighs the bad. However I think it'd be useful to be able to disable achievements for specific users (either because they don't want them or because they tried to abuse the system through useless edits).--Clean Up 15:08, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes ZappaFan I think they are cool. Keep them!
 * Yes Any incentive is good, I feel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sosabowski (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * Yes User:AK47sForAllAmusing incentive to say the least. I see no reason not to keep them. People make meaningless edits in either case. I think this will drive legitimate edits because it will cause people to look closer for details in the game so they can find something new to add so they can earn an achievement.
 * Yes Definitely pro this achievement thing. It encourages completion of pages and has no negative effects, even editing for the sake of achievements gives no material gain or loss to anyone, so even if people 'boost' they are only losing themselves karma ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Polar bears (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * seen nothing good, seen nothing bad. - RASIC Talk Poll 17:20, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes They're definitely a motivator. I agree that they inspire useless edits, but to be honest the amount of useless edits pales compared to the good edits that seem to have come about. Ryemyst 17:42, May 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes Dude101 They make me feel better about spending my evenings on the wiki, instead of writing my book :P
 * Yes I think they bring more good than bad. I felt nice when I got badge for my first editing :) DarkDefender
 * Yes - I think it helps get the pages to higher standard and it brings me back to the site (for editing not just info) -- The preceeding vote is unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * No - Some people are only doing this to help the wikia, and nothing more. However there are some idiots who ruin the pages or make a meaningless one just for the crappy, unecessary achievements. TheGunblade
 * I'm inclined more against them. I see that they really motivate people to help with the projects (they motivated me a little bit too), but also I've seen people involved in the Fallout 1&2 projects even though they never played those games. Outside of the projects they motivate towards meaningless edits, like rephrasing where was no need for that and also to make multiple edits on the same page that could have been easily done in one single edit. GobTheGoul 19:02, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Ive been using this site for about a year and a half for info but only recently have i become a member and i found the achievements really pushed me to make the odd edit here and there and i don't think i would have bothered to take the time to do so without the achievement system i understand that some may try to "achievement whore" but people like that can be caught and banned i feel its more important that we encourage as many people as possible to contribute and this system is one way to do it.--OUTLAW CptDan 01:12, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Achievements get users motivated, which leads to more article edits, which lead to an increase in quality and an easier method of tracking users that should be banned. Those that have quality edits will be rewarded and those tat don't will easily be weeded out. It's a win-win situation. Sombar1 01:21, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes after the trial period, I've changed my vote to yes. They encourage lots of edits, and lots of nonsense, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. Take drugs! Kill a bear! 21:54, May 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes The benefits outweigh the disadvantages. It has attracted quite a bit of new users and increase in activity. Sure, there is some questionable achievement editing, but it's overseeable. I gave a few warnings and 1 or 2 blocks. The creatures project never would have taken off like it did without it. And other projects aren't going too bad either (although a little less well). It also resulted in a big increase of image uploading, I question we'd have gotten without the achievements. I think that if we take it down, things will quiet down too much again, like I noticed 1,5 month ago. I don't think we want that. The Vault needed some new inspiration and motivation to edit, and this was the ticket for it. So I think it should stay. JspoelJspoel Vault Boy.png 18:28, May 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes FalloutFreak9090 it keeps players motivated to find new and interesting things in the Fallout games FalloutFreak9090 19:18, May 24, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
The thing is, those who contributed the most to the creatures projects were long time users who had little reason to be doing it just for the achievements, e.g. GhostAvatar, so I'm not sure how useful the project is at gauging the effectiveness of achievements.

Every day you still see people making questionable edits on pages obviously linked to achievements, and I can't weigh up in my own mind whether it is worth it or not. Sure traffic to the wiki has probably increased, and I'm sure the amount of edits has too, but can we say this is a question of quantity vs. quality? (Alliteration ftw.) When there are no achievements people are more likely to contribute just because they care to, not because they are motivated by the idea of getting a badge (I'm not saying there are no vandals without badges though, of course there are).

I dislike the ranking system too, and this obviously cannot be avoided with the implementation of achievements. More than anything I can see the rankings putting people off of editing, when they realize "you're ranked #9999999 on this wiki!" I'm sure they don't exactly feel very motivated to edit.

It also seems somewhat tacky, and this isn't what I associate the Vault with. Most of us are (or should be if you're playing a Fallout game) adults, and I'd like to think the Vault is generally more intelligent than other wikis (Call of Duty), and seeing the achievements pop up regularly makes me cringe at times.

Although I'm not as outright hostile to the idea as I was initially, I can still see the weaknesses quite glaringly. Oh and absolutely no doubt there will be a flood of new users voting yes, possibly discouraging any dissenters from speaking up. --User Avatar talk.png 23:44, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * And I'm not sure how to vote at the moment so I'm holding off. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 23:46, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll admit that achievements have actually motivated even me personally to focus on specific projects like the creatures one. While they might not be that big of a motivation in themselves for regular users, they help direct their attention to specific projects that might have otherwise been neglected.
 * And obviously, we need to put strict policies in place for dealing with achievement boosters. Ausir(talk) 23:48, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd be interested in hearing what policies you have in mind. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 23:57, May 17, 2011 (UTC)

I like 'em. Achievements are not something I've ever paid attention to or sought after, but I see them as a motivating force on the wiki. And I'll take the problems they bring with them as part of the on-the-whole beneficial package.--Gothemasticator 00:01, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * For me, they did make a big impact in terms of projects and overall where very positive in that respect. This is the area that they really do shine, where the achievements are focused and can easily be controlled and overseen by more experienced editors. What I do feel is pulling down the true benefits, is the general achievements set for the entire wiki. These tend to be a lot less manageable and overall the contributions are of a lot lower quality. Personally, going forward I think that there needs to be a set of rules in place and reserved only for areas of the wiki that need attention, which can be managed and controlled in a more focused fashion. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 00:09, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I honestly don't mind them, but I have reverted a lot of edits that were obviously just performed for the sake of earning a badge. While it encourages the new editors to contribute, it also encourages people just to make frivolous or incorrect edits just for the sake of earning a badge. It is a double edged sword. Maybe it would have been better to release it when Honest Hearts came out but what is done is done.--Kingclyde 00:52, May 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * There is an overwhelming amount of people who aren't sure. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 01:05, May 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * Side note - Please sign your votes people. @_@ Great Mara 01:24, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still kinda unsure about them, but I can only speak from personal experience and I feel it motivates me to edit more. However the problem of people making edits for the sake of making edits is something that has the potential to be a big problem.--RAM 01:41, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I would really like to see the points and especially the rankings parts of the system go, for the reasons Cartman! mentions. I think the badges part of the system can be used constructively, however, especially in terms of giving people ideas on how to contribute to the wiki. --HunterZ 02:12, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I just thought I'd say that I like the general achievements because I tend to do my own thing, in terms of what pages I edit, especially since the project pages seem to get enough attention & someone's usually put in what I was going to. (Looks at Ghost & Jspoel.) =P But yeah, I kinda look at the general ones as milestones in my overall editing career (if you can call it that). Canti-sama(talk) 02:38, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

Achievements are useful and motivating. The dichotomy "quality vs. quantity" is an absurd one - higher traffic means more edits means more content. Quality is irrelevant if you have to do all the work by yourself. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 08:03, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. And sometimes quantity turns into quality. As for me, I definitely needed motivation and I recieved it. veryblackraven Talk 09:20, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can agree with this, but more content doesn't necessarily mean good content. More than anything I was asking a question rather than making an assertion. --233345-cartman1_tiny.gif Avatar talk.png 11:54, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

My question is: is there a way to turn these achievements off for an individual user. That is, make it a side-game by choice for those who actually want to play it. Then, as I do not really appreciate them, I would turn them off, while others who might one to collect the silly badges would do their thing and everyone would be happy. + I especially hate the "ranking" system. It does not evaluate the complexity or size of edits. It only basically rates editors based on their edit count, and we already have that shown. --TheBearPaw 12:28, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Being able to turn off the achievement system for specific users could be an important tool not only for dealing with editors who make consistent useless edits for the sake of achievements, but for users who simply would rather not participate in the achievement system (especially veteren users whose previous contributions are not taking into consideration). I'm not sure if it's possible though since I haven't really payed much attention to it.--Clean Up 15:17, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a setting on the "misc" tab of your preferences which turns off the display of points, badges and ranking on your user page. No idea whether activating it will also stop the receipt of achievements and notifications, but I guess it's worth a try for those who dislike the achievements. -- Porter21 (talk) 19:24, May 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * It will stop the notifications and you won't see them on your user page, but you'll still be getting them behind the scenes, and will be ranked in the leaderboard. Ausir(talk) 19:32, May 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with the fact that it would be nice to be able to have achievements for large edits (that aren't reverted =P), since I sometimes can spend several hours cleaning up or redoing a small group of pages (ie, overhauling & splitting a multi-game item page). The one thing about the current edit count versus the page edit awards is that the edit count on the user page tracks every edit made, even ones on the forums, user pages, uploading images, or those made in quick succession on the same page, like making a small correction to something you just edited, as I've done a few times. (Okay, maybe more than just a few...) I usually tag those corrections as minor edits, though I don't know if those are counted, but I wouldn't want my corrections counted towards my page edits, anyways. Canti-sama(talk) 15:43, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Achievements track only edits on articles, not on all pages. Ausir(talk) 17:10, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is entirely true, Ausir. If you leave a blog comment, that counts as "contributing to the wiki" and can be used to get badges like Defender, or whatever badges you get for contributing for a certain number of days. Take drugs! Kill a bear! 22:16, May 23, 2011 (UTC)

Final result
While there have been quite a few voices of disagreement, it looks like a definite majority (more than all the "no" and "neutral" votes together) are still in support of achievements. Therefore the final verdict is that achievements are here to stay. Ausir(talk) 13:04, May 25, 2011 (UTC)