Talk:Trigger Discipline

Firing rate?
Do they mean your trigger squeeze rate or the firing rate of the weapons? (I don't see how YOUR trait could effect the weapon) And how does it effect automatic weapons? RadRuler 21:54, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see how radiation can turn people into ghouls, either. Must be some crazy voodoo. Or the fact that it's a video game. -- 21:57, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jeez, no need to be sarcastic. And way to avoid being helpful.  RadRuler 01:57, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

So, is your fire rate slower or o bullets/bolts/beams travel slower?

Sounds like it just means that your character takes extra time to line up his shots. Thats what I got from the name of it at least. --72.160.251.230 02:44, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

It slows down fire rate not the time to line up a shot. The accuracy doesn't make any noticeable difference in Vats (pistols are still highly inaccurate at extreme ranges), however outside of Vats a person with good vision and experience with ironsights (in games or real life) can use the Weathered 10mm pistol as a sniper platform with this trait (the bullet deviates very little in flight). Standing atop the ridge overlooking Primm (NCR side) you can just barely make out movement of NCR shapes in the distance looking down the sight of the pistol, if you crouch the sneak attack critical indicator will let you know you've hit them. Health on the enemies will not be displayed due to the extreme range. Mictlantecuhtli 23:23, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

- i just edited the page to remove your line about the slower rate of fire and less shots being an annoyance, because thats more of a personal opinion than factual information. if i dont mind a slower rate of fire and less vats shots then its not an annoyance to me.

anyways, this trait appears to me for the person who prefers long range shooting as accuracy even at high skill levels can be an issue at extreme ranges. i personally paired it with built to destroy for a long range shooter type.


 * it's a fact though, this perk only hurts in the endgame. With max gun skill several guns have 0 accuracy all on their own, meaning this perk only screws you over. Phfor 11:00, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * What? Your comments make little sense, more accuracy can never hurt and 0 accuracy on a gun would mean it misses 100% of the time. Mictlantecuhtli 11:06, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just cleaned the article up. If you're able to look at your monitor and tell for a fact that your crosshair was aimed perfectly but your shot still missed by less then two hundredths of a degree, and no more then that, as that's all the perk benefits snipers, let me know. Phfor 11:45, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * The difference with this perk and without is very obvious on the 360 when using pistols at extreme ranges outside of vats, so it is useful to long-range styles of play despite what you may think. You take the Weathered 10mm Pistol, or Lucky and try to hit a target at the edge of your vision and it takes about five shots to line it up to hit. With this perk it takes fewer than 3 usually to get a hit. I'll leave the article as is, because it definitely benefits the Laser RCW (the thing is a beast with this trait and firing from the hip or shoulder). Mictlantecuhtli 15:00, October 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Kind of funny you mention lucky when according to the weapon page it's the second most accurate pistol. Phfor 20:32, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

this perk also has a rather dramatic effect on VATS targetting, and you can easily see it just by making 2 new characters, one with and one without.

targeting a stationary NPC with VATS at the same location: trigger discipline- 50%, without- 28%, fast shot- 24%

while of course at high weapon skill you could push the chance to hit up much higher, accuracy also gets worse at further ranges, and also on hard to hit areas of a target. so this trait would still be beneficial in its own way.

i.e. VATS would remain viable at further ranges, as well as increased chance to hit hard targets in VATS. the tradeoff being 20% higher shot cost in VATS.

conversely i havent noticed much different when shooting outside of vats using iron sights with either this or fast shot traits taken.

perhaps its more noticable if you dont use a rifle for long range shooting, but even with a rifle using iron sights at very long ranges i cant notice a perceivable difference. if there is one its so small you would need a very large sample to prove its there, and thats pretty meaningless outside of making a spreadsheet.

in the end though, you will most likely not use VATS for long range shooting very often, while you will suffer a 20% increase in costs for when you need VATS at close range to save yourself.

conversely i think Fast Shot is probably the single most powerful trait available. it has no real noticeable effect on long range shooting using iron sights, while giving you a persistent 20% increased fire rate, and 20% reduced AP cost in vats.

you can reproduce higher accuracy in vats through perks such as commando, gunslinger, and sniper. you can never reproduce 20% increase fire rate without taking the trait.

i suppose there is a point to slowing down the fire rate of automatic weapons for FPS style play, but at the same time i dont think its very wise to go full-auto on anything unless its at point blank range, at which point fast shot is still better because it will be dead that much sooner.

Would this trait be pretty suitable for a pure shotgun build? It seems like shotguns lose most of their DPS reloading and not actually between shots when loaded. On the other hand most shotguns have very high spread, and 20% less spread combined with slugs would probably allow you to snipe with a hunting shotgun, while not really causing any non-VATS downside up close when using something like the sawed-off shotgun.--Wallach 23:38, October 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rapid Reload is good with shotguns due to their low ammunition, so yeah I could see Trigger Discipline being good with a shotgun (especially with Steady/Chem Resistant (80% addiction chance) also) since most of your fire rate is interrupted by slow reloads. Mictlantecuhtli 10:25, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

-having a high agility will make more of an impact on your reload speed than taking rapid reload perk. if you have both reload speeds are lightning fast.

i have 9 agility, no implant yet, and rapid reload and i honestly think its overkill. he reloads so fast its ridiculous, and i think i would have been fine spending the perk for something else and just going with the agility alone.

at the same time though there are some terribly slow reloading weapons, such as a cowboy repeater, where its still beneficial to have. so i dont know, i would say if you have a high agility, then the rapid reload perk swings between useless and decent, though i would never say its awesome.

its because you go so fast with a high agility that rapid reload is reducing an already small time frame. say it takes you 2 seconds to reload, rapid reload knocks of half a second, thats pretty awesome. if it takes you 0.5 seconds to reload, its only knocking off 0.125 seconds... barely noticable.

anyways i think trigger discipline is probably the most commonly taken trait because most people think oh yeah, uber accuracy and want it to be good so bad... but its really just terrible.

even if you are only taking it for the reduced spread, losing 20% of your AP in vats to this trait is such a huge penalty that i dont think its ever worth it.

no matter how much you want to visualize being the super sniper, you are going to end up in situations where you have to deal with multiple targets at close range and VATS is the difference between killing them and taking little damage, or taking a lot of damage and missing alot as they jump all over the place.

you can have a million reasons why you 'think' trigger discipline is good, but in real play the penalty is just too harsh.

honestly, i have fast shot with 20% penalty to accuracy and i can still iron sight shoot things with rifles from so far away i cant even tell if i have the target on their head or their chest and reliably hit them once i got guns up. in vats with a pistol i still have 95% to hit heads at close range, and probably 80% or better at medium range, and more with a rifle... and i effectively have 20% reduced ap costs... 40% compared to trigger discipline.


 * " no matter how much you want to visualize being the super sniper, you are going to end up in situations where you have to deal with multiple targets at close range and VATS is the difference between killing them and taking little damage, or taking a lot of damage and missing alot as they jump all over the place. " Some people are accurate outside of VATS, and good at avoiding damage (especially with high movement speed). Mictlantecuhtli 15:18, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

well, you can reinforce the idea to yourself that its good, doesnt really affect me any, i know better. take something like golden geckos, if they hit you it will do a lot of damage as well as give you rads, and you get attacked by a pack of them... with vats its pretty easy mode, without vats you are going to be 'trying' to kite them all over the place to try and avoid damage and will most likely either miss most your shots, or take a lot of damage.

im good at fps games, really good, but fallout doesnt really play like your standard fps either.

if someone is so pro that they never need to use vats to save themselves from wasting ammo and taking a lot of damage, then i would think they are pro enough to think this perk is a waste. i cant think of any pro fps player who would willingly take 20% reduced rate of fire for a benefit they dont need.

like i said, with fast shot giving me a 20% penalty, which is 40% compared to trigger discipline, i can still hit things reliable from ridiculous range using a rifle.

if you arnt taking trigger discipline for VATS, then why are you taking it at all? shooting slow isnt a bonus.


 * I don't think I am pro, I think you are fooling yourself by thinking it takes one to be accurate outside of vats. Which this perk clearly helps with, wasting ammo isn't a high priority as it's abundant with the right planning or skills (such as barter for abundant cash, just fast travel between gun runners, silver rush, etc buying up ammunition. By the time I found a laser rcw I had 300+ over charge packs, 1700 ec packs, etc. Scrounger can help considerably also, it's all in how you setup the character. Experiences will vary. Mictlantecuhtli 16:25, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

thats just a funny post altogether. first you say its not hard to be accurate outside of vats, then you continue on to say you dont care about wasting ammo.

then when i look at your post under "Rapid Reload" perk, you are touting the virtues of the perk because deathclaws closing the distance too soon can spell disaster for you.

you know what would make it not a disaster? if you didnt have a gimped fire rate and vats so you could actually deal with it.

all in all i just find your various posts about combat very hypocritical and like you just want to argue whichever side suits you at the time.

also, notice all the perks like action boy, math wrath, plasma spaz, and so on to make VATS better... why are you taking a trait to make it effectively worse.

also i think you are severely illusioned if you think this trait, or fast shot, has any noticeable effect on accuracy outside of vats.

i could tell you again how with fast shot i have technically 40% worse accuracy, yet i still peg things from max viewable distance easily, but i dont think it will sink in, you are just being obtuse about it and determined its doing something its really not. its like trying to tell a child santa claus doesnt really exist, they just dont believe it.

since i know you wont believe me, then look at the math.

rifle spread is so low that adding or subtracting 20% isnt even noticable.

look at the difference between ratslayer and a scoped varmint rifle. its MORE than the spread change by either trigger discipline or fast shot, lol. i mean really.

realistically at high weapon skills these traits do the following :

trigger discipline : 20% increased AP costs, 20% slower fire rate

fast shot : 20% reduced AP costs, 20% faster fire rate

i dont know how obvious it needs to be for it to sink in, but yeah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.0.81 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ !


 * It's not hypocritical, it's common sense. You can be accurate and take barter for better bullet amounts. You're just angry I don't agree with you, and too cowardly to sign your posts. Mictlantecuhtli 22:58, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

actually it is hypocritical.

if you are so accurate outside of vats, then why do you bring up wasting ammo doesnt matter, you shouldnt be wasting it because you are so pro and accurate. its just contradictory to correlate the two together the way you did.

then you are over on rapid reload touting the benefits of saving time on reloads because things like death claws close too fast on you and its disastrous for you, and then you are over here advocating for a perk to make you shoot slower.

i would also like to see your uber skill fighting things like nightkin that move so ridiculously fast and have such a huge hit box on their swings the only way you dont take a lot of damage is to use VATS. like over on the quest for come fly with me, people saying they have to use all these chems and rest after every one... psh i didnt even really get hurt. sneak attack critical, then vats, and they are dead.

ive been all over this site for this game, and all in all, you are just very arrogant and hate to be wrong, and people have to pound it into you over and over for you to stop editing correct information off of pages because you just dont want to believe it and be wrong. its kind of sad really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.74.0.81 (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ ! ____________

As stated in the actual article, the increased accuracy provided by the perk is redundant when using sniper rifles since their sway is so minute to begin with. This perk is best suited for players who prefer fully automatic weapons rather than bolt action rifles, repeaters, pistols or sniper rifles. In my opinion, I would not choose Triiger Discipline or Fast Shot since the advantages and disadvantages are at a stalemate.

+20% AP Cost is in itself a big blow. The +20% accuracy doesn't compensate for 20% less firing speed, since within that 20% of lost time could be a kill shot. In addition, that additional "aiming time" is just more time for the enemy to retreat while you're lining up your shot. When it comes to Fast Shot, I see it as just a waste of ammo. You get a powerful weapon like This Machine and Fast Shot's additional damage becomes obsolete. IceTyrant89

just something for the Fast Shot Fanatics to think about... why shoot more bullets when you cant hit with them?--78.73.37.142 06:43, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Disappoint
I picked this trait hoping it would add actual trigger discipline to my character, after noting how undisciplined characters are. Their fingers are constantly on the trigger. Tututut. Doesn't actually change animation, though. I guess I could download a mod. 83.249.40.39 21:21, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Accuracy bonus in vats.
As some might have already noted, he accuracy gained in vats seems to be much more than the 20% bonus would imply. It seems like it nearly comes close to doubling hit percentages. I suspect there is some sort of interaction between the spread modification (I guess this changes the base hit %) and the to hit bonus in vats.

As far as fast shot vs trigger discipline. I've run two very similar builds (one with one trait and the other, with the other), and tested the accuracy of each on static targets. I even crunched numbers. At range in most scenarios trigger discipline will produce slightly more damage and waste less ammo. Fast shot can get close but while using more ammo. To be honest the only time I felt that I needed the additional firepower and firing speed fast shot could provide was when storming Ceasar's tent with Boone in tow. Otherwise it's a bunch of rats or something in a vault, so just switch to a weaker but quicker weapon.

Overall there's no real fault in choosing either. The additional ammo consumption of fast shot is a downside, but the upside of better damage output at very close ranges seems marginal to me, as I very rarely see rough combat in close quarters like that. And the slight damage gains at most ranges and ammo savings of trigger discipline don't particularly justify the trait for me. So it's difficult for me to find strong justification for choosing one or the other. I'd build a middle of the road character without either trait to see if that perhaps could be better but I suspect just more middle of the road. I could be wrong though. It would be possible for such a character to break 4 shots per turn with the gobi, perhaps there is some crucial threshold here. I dunno, maybe I'll test it sometime. Rhomb 10:26, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

What about bolt action or repeaters?
Only automatic and sniping weapons are talked about with this perk. How are guns like This Machine affected by this perk?
 * All weapons are positively effected by the perk, it's just that some are more noticeable than others. If the spread of the gun is very high, this trait works great with it granted you do not rely on the buggy V.A.T.S. system since it increases AP cost when using it. Mictlantecuhtli 23:37, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I find that the increased accuracy is not worth the increased AP Cost and decreased firing rate. IceTyrant89 18:50, December 3, 2010

needs cleanup
Is this page informing me what the trait does or lecturing me on if I should take it? Needs cleanup but I don't even know where to start. Or how to tag it as needing cleanup. I'm a noob wiki user. 24.27.46.248 01:29, December 20, 2010 (UTC)

This page is about Trigger Discipline. Whether it is informing people about what it does, how it works, whether it should be taken or not all fall under the purpose of this page. IceTyrant89

since the trait says guns and energy weapons, does that mean that a missile launcher or grenade launchers are unaffected since they r explosive?

i played throughout the entire game already with Trigger Discipline and I gotta say, the perk seems quite beneficial, sniping geckos, deathclaws, and supermutants in VATS while having a 1% chance of actually hitting them..im not sure why, but I seem to get mostly hits everytime when I have a 1%chance, yet without the perk, most of the time im getting misses :/...plus ever seen this trait on miniguns or the automatic rifle? insane accuracy FTW

Considerations. And Vance SMG...
People need to realize that are different kinds of play and strategy. Only because VATS exists doesn't mean that YOU HAVE to use it, this trait is mainly directed for people who like to play outside VATS (like described in the article, BTW). If you like VATS stop reading this and in pick the Commando/Sniper/Gunslinger perks.

On the other hand, this trait is for people like me, who actually like to use iron sights and don't bother much with VATS for guns or energy weapons. And the state that this are not "for guns blazing" is an opinion of the autor, not an actual fact. Vance SMG becomes a beast with this trait, suparsing the Assault Carbine, but requiring much less skill to use, I'm tired of shrweding Cazadors and Fire Geckos with this gun. And automatic weapons like the Minigun, LMG, Vance SMG, 10mm SMG and All-American becomes more strong than ever.

In fact, if you want to use automatic weapons and go "guns blazing", this is the trait. ;) Brfritos 21:43, February 21, 2011 (UTC)

Crit Chance
Will the fire rate increase of Fast Shot and the decrease of this trait affect crit chance with automatic weapons like the Flamer or Laser RCW, or any other weapon whose high rate of fire drastically reduces the character's chance to critical? Schneidend 07:38, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

AP
I heard that Trigger Discipline has a hidden bonus of 20 points to AP. Is this true?122.108.188.89 04:11, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Stacks in a multiplicative manner.
When combining this trait with perks like Commando and Sniper, you can have extremely large ranges in which you can target in VATS. Due to the way the perks stack (multiplicative), it makes fully automatic weapons highly accurate enough in VATS to the point of being able to be used at a wider range of distances. Weapons like the Assault carbine or the 12.7mm submachine gun are only surpassed by Sniper-style weapons only because they lack a scope and the range. At any other distance with this trait, they are extremely devastating. In short, Fast Shot is better for semi-automatic weapons, while Triggered Discipline is better for automatic weapons. Dragofireheart 21:29, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

1.2 Attack Speed and 0.8 Accuracy?
"Fast Shot multiplies attack speed by 1.2 and accuracy by 0.8, while Trigger Discipline multiplies attack speed by 0.8 and accuracy by 1.2"

From where is this information derived? I show a 20%/-20% (multiplicative bonus to accuracy in VATS with TD not withstanding). Can someone clarify this for me?

Tohuw 09:29, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Like the infobox says, Trigger Discipline grants +20% accuracy with guns and energy weapons and gives you a -20% fire rate. This means that you accuracy is 120% and your RoF is 80%. Simple math dictates that 120% = 1.2 and 80% = 0.8. --Kastera (talk) 16:39, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Does Not Affect Automatic Weapons
This does not appear to affect automatic weapons. I ran a timed test in the SINK, one with Trigger Discipline and one with Fast Shot, and in both cases an Assault Carbine (GRA) emptied X number of clips in the EXACT same amount of time. The DPS of the weapon under both perks also remained the same. I have only tested this on Xbox, and would be curious to hear further results. Either way the main article for this trait makes several claims pertaining to automatic weapons that may need to be altered.

Aonaran 14:22, October 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * It could also be a result of some DLC weapons not getting affected by the Trait. At least that seems to be the case for the Commando perk and some DLC weapons. --68.253.208.102 19:31, October 22, 2011 (UTC)