Talk:Fast Shot

You can't make aimed shots in fallout 2 with this trait, edited

New Vegas
Hm, does this decrease VATS accuracy, or does it increase the spread of a weapon as well. In the case of VATS, does it decrease accuracy with all weapons, or just those that use the Guns and Energy Weapons skills? Schneidend 02:09, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the mechanics behind this are going to be make or break for a lot of builds. 1.2 x zero spread = zero spread, after all? If not, well, I guess this trait never was aimed at people using precise weapons. Ironic, it actually worked well with a sniper rifle in the first two games. I want to do a pistol build, so while the rapid fire would be great, I'm a bit worried about permanently gimping the accuracy that's also needed. 81.178.129.86 16:48, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

i would also be interested in how the accuracy penalty works out at higher weapon skills. i was too concerned it would affect long range shots outside of vats, and would cause issues in vats on harder to hit areas such as a deathclaw face.

i was really looking at this trait though because 20% reduced AP cost on attacks would end up being more than 10 ap from kamikaze, as well as giving a faster fire rate normally. accuracy is just such a big deal in fallout games i wasnt certain how bad it would be.

-- well my curiosity was killing me so i made a new guy and took the perk to try it out and from the little i tested it this is what i noticed.

using the varmint rifle i was still able to plink off powder gangers from quite far away with sneak attack criticals using the iron sights without any noticable increase in misses.

using VATS my accuracy was noticably worse at medium range, but seemed unaffected at close range. i think its safe to assume that at close range you have such a high chance to hit that the accuracy penalty is just meaningless.

at medium to further ranges using vats you do suffer reduced accuracy after further testing, but its slight. strangely enough trigger discipline bonus has a larger noticable effect in vats than the penalty on this.

targetting a stationary NPC from the same position in vats would look like this:

fast shot chosen - 23% no accuracy perk chosen - 28% trigger discipline chosen - 50%

considering with high weapon skill you can make the trigger discipline perk useless except at extreme ranges, i would assume that at high weapon skill you can push the penalty from fast shot into only being an issue at long range, which makes the penalty pretty light considering at long range you dont use vats much. you are better off doing sneak attack criticals with the iron sights or a scoped rifle.

personally i generally only use vats for medium to close range fighting to avoid taking a lot of damage and wasting ammo, and this trait does reduce your AP costs by 20% in vats, while giving you an incredible rate of fire outside of vats.

pair this trait with kamikaze, action boy x 2, grim reapers sprint, math wrath, and nerves of steel... you would be a veritable AP machine.

-- its probably also worth noting that this is the only way to get increased rate of fire outside of vats. so even if you have to pick up perks like commando and gunslinger to offset the penalty, it may still be worth it depending on the player.

-im not really a fan of automatic weapons in this game, because targets move around way too much and you just end up wasting a lot of ammo, so this perk is awesome for my style of play. it makes semi automatic weapons, which i prefer, shoot that much faster so you never feel like you are shooting too slow.

it is amusing though equipping a full auto weapon and having it shoot so fast the sound glitches out because it cant keep up with the fire rate.

Does anybody know how this trait would affect the flamer? After all the increased spread sounds like a good thing for it.

Description
The description for the NV version of the trait made no sense, I tried making it more accurate.Vryheid 00:26, October 30, 2010 (UTC)

VATS accuracy hard capped at 76% in the console version
Just so those with an xbox or ps3 are aware, no matter what situation, perks, etc, you cannot get higher than 76% accuracy using a VATS shot with this perk. Given that we don't have the precision of a mouse and often rely on VATS to make our gameplay sane, it makes this perk awful, imo.

I also see a lot of comments here and elsewhere about being able to easily max accuracy with high weapon skill even without trigger discipline. As someone who used trigger discipline on my first playthrough, with 100 guns, crouched, at medium range, I often didn't get up to 95% on headshots, and that was with sniper and commando. So either the console version is very very harsh on VATS accuracy, or people are exagerrating.

In any case, do not take this perk if you rely on or enjoy using VATS for kills on the console versions.

This is not true. I've taken commando with fast shot on the Xbox 360 and now I can hit 95% accuracy in vats. Rhomb 06:54, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

So im not sure if my version may be glitched or something, but Ive taken Fast Shot and do not have Gunslinger, Commando, Sniper, ect. and am able to get a 95% when they get close enough. This only occurs when i have the necessary skill and strength for a weapon(My example is a Grenade Launcher as i only started hitting 95% when i got to 75 Explosives). Any other weapons i use and don't have the skill, it does cap out at 76% Drmuffinz 03:33, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

When is the penalty applied? (New Vegas [Super boring math type question]) UPDATE: Commando/Gunslinger eliminates the 76% accuracy cap in V.A.T.S (Xbox 360)
For example, say a person builds a character with fast shot, and takes commando. Is the 20% penalty applied prior to the bonus from Commando? So say 95% chance to hit, with the 20% penalty applied for a total chance to hit of 76%. Would the 25% bonus of Commando then be applied? This would bring the chance to hit back up to 95%, mitigating much of the accuracy loss from the trait. Or is the penalty applied after the bonus, thus limiting accuracy to a maximum of 76%?

The reason I ask is because if it essentially negates the 76% accuracy cap (95 - 19 [20% of 95] = 76, 76 + 19 [25% of76] = 95) then it should actually be a mathematically stronger perk in V.A.T.S than trigger discipline.

Here's why:

So lets say that there are two builds, one with Trigger discipline, Commando and Concentrated Fire, and another with Fast Shot, Commando and Concentrated Fire. So lets say that Commando and Trigger discipline give the first character a 45% accuracy advantage over the second (perhaps this is not how it works, perhaps the 20% bonus is added and then a 25% bonus is added to that, which should mean that the accuracy bonus is slightly more powerful [with the largest disparity occurring at 64% to hit for Char 2 and 95% for Char 1 (740 avg dam VS 570)], I'd love to see how the accuracy equation works if someone has access to it).

Anyways so lets use the most extreme disparity between the two characters so say Character 2 has a 66% chance to hit a given enemy, and Character 1 with his 45% bonus has a 95% chance to hit the same enemy in the exact same situation, distance etc.

So with all AP perks and traits taken (Kamakaize, Math Wrath and 2 ranks of Action Boy) Character 1 should be able to manage 3 shots per round with a sniper rifle. Character 2 should be able to manage 5. Let's assume about 200 damage per shot (10 luck, finesse, better crit, jsp ammo 1st recon beret etc.)

So over 3 shots Char 1's average chance to hit will be 95%. 95% of a total 600 possible damage is 570, meaning that if this exact scenario was repeated ad infinitum on average char 1 would land about approximately 570 damage per V.A.T.S round.

But over 5 shots Char 2's average chance to hit will be 76 (with a hard 76% accuracy cap 73% avg [730 avg dam per vats round]) Anyways this would mean approx 760 avg dam per round (1000 * .76).

So even with Char 1's large accuracy bonus in this situation, Char 2 still outputs more damage, even with a hard accuracy cap. Though a hard accuracy cap might bring up issues like weather or not people would be comfortable risking missing shots at close ranges where enemies can sometimes become irritatingly too close to shoot with a long gun.

I am currently testing these two builds, but if anyone already has a fast shot/commando/gunslinger build, please let me know. Rhomb 04:26, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ok I've hit level 8 on this build and taken commando. It seems the bonus from commando is in fact added after the penalty from fast shot. So it essentially erases the 76% accuracy cap. Though rifle sway while manually aiming and standing seems pretty bad. While crouching it becomes a non-issue. The 20% added shot deviation does not seem to make much difference though. While crouching it is still possible to snipe things like bark scorpions, that just look like brown dots on the screen. I am playing on Xbox 360.

Is it o.k. if I add that taking commando or gunslinger will lift the 76% accuracy cap on the front page? I've never edited a front page before so I'm not sure how it's done. Rhomb 06:51, November 20, 2010 (UTC)

UPDATE: Static target testing has revealed something different than anticipated. The accuracy difference between the two builds is much greater than the 20% bonus and penalty might suggest. I think there is some interaction between the 20% reduction in shot deviation and the 20% vats accuracy bonus that is giving fast shot a much larger accuracy bonus than can be accounted for with the 45% disparity between builds that I had originally estimated. I'm not sure how the equation works before the bonuses and penalties from fast shot/trigger discipline and commando are applied though.

One target at mid range for the Fast Shot Character was a 47% (57 avg or ~ 570 damage over 5 shots) chance to hit, the same target at the same range for for the Trigger Discipline Character was 95% (570 damage over 3 shots)

Another target at longer range was a 24% (34 avg or ~ 340 damage over 5 shots) chance to hit for the Fast Shot Character. For the Trigger Discipline Character it was 56% (61 avg or 366 dam over 3 shots)

I suspect that trigger discipline will edge away further at even longer distances but I need ideas for static targets and easily measured shooting positions. So far fast shot has stayed pretty close mostly through simply "rolling the dice" more often although at very close distances it will clearly pull away Rhomb 12:26, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Another update, checked accuracy at max vats engagement distance and the damage per round was still very close. Furthermore the difference in shot deviation seems to make little or no difference in regards to maximum vats engagement range. In this instance accuracy was 14 (24 avg or 240 dam over 5 shots) for fast shot and 36 (41 avg or 246 over 3 shots) for trigger discipline.

It seems that the two traits can output about equal damage at range, while fast shot also gains an advantage in close quarters. Some downsides might be that rifle sway wile standing seems worse and extra ammo consumption and firearm wear. Rhomb 13:23, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Hi i know i'm no member here. Just wanted to say that max 76% in vats is incorrect for PC. I have fast shot and i can get 95% in vats, without any perks.

Crit Chance in New Vegas
Does increasing the attack rate decrease the crit chance of automatic weapons whose crit chance is nerfed by their fire rates such as the Flamer or Laser RCW? Would decreasing rate of fire with Trigger Discipline likewise improve your crit multiplier with such weapons? Schneidend 07:38, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

The numbers for critical hit you read are per bullet. Hence a 0.15% change for a weapon mean there is a 0.0015 chance of scoring a critical change with each bullet you fire. Since you are firing less bullets with trigger discipline, and more with fast shot, you theoretically have 20% more or less bullets fired and hence 20% more or less chance of scoring a critical hit.

In conclusion - Fast Shot increases critical hit chance by 20% (since your firing more bullets) and trigger discipline is reduced by 20% ASSUMING EVERY BULLET HITS. As we know, the accuracy is reduced with one trait than the other.

Makes Melee Attacks Faster As Well
If you feel like exploiting this.

Effect for single shot weapons
Does it effect reload speeds?

for example using a gattling laser i presume it will increase dps by reducing the time between shots. However using a gauss rifle which has to reload after each shot, this can't be the case, the only way to increase it's dps would be to increase the reload speed. So is this the case or is this trait useless for weapons which reload after each shot? 90.214.207.109 14:15, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Does Not Affect Automatic Weapons
This does not appear to affect automatic weapons. I ran a timed test in the SINK, one with Trigger Discipline and one with Fast Shot, and in both cases an Assault Carbine (GRA) emptied X number of clips in the EXACT same amount of time. The DPS of the weapon under both perks also remained the same. I have only tested this on Xbox, and would be curious to hear further results. Either way the main article for this trait makes several claims pertaining to automatic weapons that may need to be altered.

Aonaran 14:23, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Max hit 76%?
Fast shot doesn't reduce my maximum possible hit chance- I regularly get 95's from close-medium range (often when headshotting with a shotgun as a finisher) with several weapons. Also, is it worth mentioning that this perk makes semi-automatic weapons able to dramatically increase damage output at close range? E.g. the service rifle, which with fast shot I can fire as fast as I can pull the trigger, or lever action weapons, which I can do the same with?