Talk:Enclave military strength

Excessive speculation and basing on in-game events
I have slightly mixed feelings here. I like the article, but some conclusions are going too far (adapting Vault 13 for Deathclaws? Col. Sanders the oldest soldier in the field?) and some base too much on what happens in-game (which is not always totally representative of how it would look IRL). Shaur M. S. Grizlin 18:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

"some base too much on what happens in-game, which is not always totally representative of how it would look IRL" - as far as I understant this statement it is philosophical issue - unfortunatelly in-game possibilities are one of the strongest proofs we have.


 * adapting Vault 13 for Deathclaws - it is no conclusion, just "fact" (factoid) known from:
 * game (gated deathclaw nest level 3, that was not a standard vault facility)
 * dialogues with pack mother (some people helped to build this nest),
 * Fallout Bible timeline (I have mixed feelings about Bible, but in this case it gives good answers).


 * Sanders case - without doubts he was the eldest rank known the Enclave officer; his presence at Mariposa excavations confirms, tha he was field officer also; simple conclusion, that he is the eldest rank known field officer does not go to far.--dotz 10:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Err, no. The nest was dug out by deathclaws, and the door was installed by a human friend, which doesn't mean the Enclave did it. The deathclaws are extremely wary and hostile towards the Enclave, and referring to them as "friend" is not encountered. The Enclave is not mentioned *ever*, and that is not solid proof.


 * Also, the Bible states: "Enclave animal handlers drop a Deathclaw unit into Vault 13 from a safe distance to kill anyone investigating the Vault and cloak the Enclave's presence. Other Deathclaws are sent into the desert surrounding Vault 13 to check for any escapees or witnesses."


 * As for Colonel Sanders, we only know his *rank*, not the age. Jumping to conclusions will get your ass shot off one day. [ (c) Harold ]. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 11:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Talking about rank seniority - in Polish "older" officer is fancy equivalent for "higher rank" officer. Sorry, if it is inproper in english. Once again procedure of concluding is:
 * 1) as colonel Sanders is the highest rank known the Enclave officer.
 * 2) his presence at Mariposa excavations confirms, tha he was field officer.
 * 1+2 = Sanders is the highest known field officer.

Proposed info for wiki:"the highest rank known the Enclave officer and the highest known field officer also"

I will check the Bible for V13 built crew eipsode and dialogue files in moment. Lets wright articles using quotations only (dark humor). Your crticism inspired me to wright a new subchapter about ranks at the Enclave army. I am afraid there is quite a lot fiction/unproved information at Sanders article also :). BTW Merrry Christmars --dotz 19:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, he is the highest ranking officer we know of, but not the oldest one, which was the meaning of what you wrote. As for his article... where exactly is the fiction and unproved information there?
 * "Colonel Sanders was an Enclave military officer" - obvious.
 * "who was overseeing the excavation of the Mariposa Military Base." - Outside holodisk
 * "His ability allowed the Enclave to procure the FEV-II sample," - Outside holodisk and number 4.
 * "as well as prevent the mutated miners from overcoming the last guards and overrunning the camp outside the base." - outside, he ordered the sealing of the base.
 * Cheers, Shaur M. S. Grizlin

May be it is a problem of not very exact language, check the Sanders discussion.--dotz 11:50, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Geez, the Bible really do not refer any "built crews" dropped to V13, may be it was some interview? Let's check dialogue files (BTW talking about friend, who constructed deathclaw mother lair seems as a lie form me, at least deathclaws were intelligent and ashamed about V13 emptying).--dotz 13:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you base your "lie" theory on? Why would the deathclaw lie, if others OUTRIGHT tell you about their relationship with the Enclave? Don't make Occam's Razor blunt. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 14:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all you were very right about engineers in Vault 13. It was my speculation. The memory is strange thing, and my suposition from before 2 months (when I started to wright it) I have been defending as truth now. It is very helpful to have fellow full of objections. "lie theory"
 * base for it is their shame and some intelligence feature, that connects it with agility to lie (as far as I remember Grunthar's shame was refered at Fallout Bible);
 * wisest way with words is not to tell everything, as Grunthar did; I think it didn't have to contradict their honesty,
 * talking about this issue I don't agree with your statement that the deathclaws are extremely wary and hostile towards the Enclave - however I can be wrong (it will be helpful, if you point the source if this information, Bible describes their rather long "cooperation" with the Enclave), let's say they were rather sceptical about the Enclave,
 * Grunthar hostility was obvious, when he was dying as a last member of community,
 * others OUTRIGHT to tell about bad relationship with the Enclave are Enclavers at Navarro and on the oil rig - it is far from V13 and it was not obvious that Chosen One can talk with them (vertibird, maps and proper behavior were necessary).

Unfortunatelly I can't check dialogue files and Bible for deathclaws issue right now (family...). Just give me some time to find some more information (Jan 2008?) :). Occam's Razor is my tool also.--dotz 19:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You're complicating really straightforward cases (also, dialogue files are available on the Vault). The pack mother doesn't remember the name of the guy who installed the door (though install quite propably refers to wiring and helping put it together, while the deathclaws did a majority of the physical work), but remembers that he was a friend. She propably doesn't get out much, so it might've been the geek in the mainframe room.
 * Goris is a source of information and his attitude towards the Enclave is pretty representative of the entire pack, he's pretty much Gruthar's apprentice. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have built this speculation on my opinion, that deathclaws are not able to built lair in the soild rocks (vide: vaults holodisc). They are not able to use keyboard, what about drill and other mining equipment? The guy in computer room is good explanation, but for the next speculation.
 * Goris is full of hatred after his species genocide, but when Chosen One enters V13 first no one mentiones the Enclave openly. Just Goris says something about abandoned military base to the east and may be some human (computer guy?) something more (don't remember exactly what, Frisco or some geographical directions?). More I can say, when I check V13 .msg files.--dotz 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * On what do you base your assumption that they cannot dig? Maybe the rock was softer there? Or maybe it was a leftover from when the Vault 13 was still dug out? And finally, why would the Enclave bother digging out a lair for them, if the Deathclaws were only meant to clean up and keep watch, so that no-one would walk in? Occam's Razor.
 * On Goris, he reveals what Gruthar thinks: "{151}{}{::sigh::) They were captured by The Enclave. Gruthar and the pack were forced to aid in their

capture. They had no choice since they were slaves at the time. The fate of the humans has weighed heavily on Gruthar's mind. He's never really forgiven himself for his complicity in the affair. The humans were taken alive, but who knows what has happened to them since?} {152}{}{(Sigh) They were captured by a group called 'The Enclave.' Gruthar and the pack were forced to aid in their capture. They had no choice since they were slaves at the time. '''The fate of the humans has weighed heavily on Gruthar's mind. He's never really forgiven himself for his complicity in the affair.''' The humans were taken alive, but who knows what has happened to them since.}"
 * Pretty indicative. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 22:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

why would the Enclave bother digging out a lair for them, if the Deathclaws were only meant to clean up and keep watch ends main plot of the discussion for me. I can agree, that their presence was planned to be temporary, because they were all killed by the Enclave. The computer's guy origin and mysterious friend are still question for me (latter one is unnecessary entity).--dotz 09:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * My guess is the geek and the rest were invited by the Deathclaws. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 13:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

offtop/BTW - any answer for petition to Bethesda about realising design docs?--dotz 14:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Article name
You sure are fond of long article names. Why not simply Enclave armed forces? Ausir 11:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Enclave Armed Forces organization. There are some paralell articles also (eg. procedures, ranks, HR probably)--dotz 06:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Condensation of needless articles
This article, and others connected to it, seem to repeat themselves parallel to each other, and should likely be condensed down into one, simplified article, with any extraneous lists available from them. I will begin conversion. Jwguy 20:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think making them continuous text rather than bullet points would read better. Ausir 21:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I do agree, for the most part. My point was that much of the information on this page and the child page contain information that is either already stated, is unnecessary, or should be stated elsewhere. For examples, the information about the Oil Rig's defenses and stationed Guards should be present on the article for the oil rig, not here, whereas Enclave Ranks and Hierarchy can be mentioned, but there is hardly any need to make a gigantic article about who belongs to which one, when they can simply be composed in a separate list. Jwguy 21:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I is not a novel and it is very really hard to make proper article with continous text (like in real encyclopedia), however I can try to delete paralels. The information on this page and the child page contain information that is either already stated, is unnecessary, or should be stated elsewhere - original title of this page contained Organization word. You can move content you like to side articles, however I surendered to edit Enclave or oil rig like articles becouse of it poor quality and continous text, and - last, but not least - derrick was not an Enclve military unit - and guard unit was very part of Armed Forces. Let's say I can try to make it shorter here, but it is necessary part of this article. who belongs to which one means just organization, however I can consider more detailous propositions to make some additional lists in separate articles. I hope you don't want to amputate some stuff and left this article crippled?--dotz 22:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Since this concerns a number of articles, and not just this one, let's continue the conversation at Forum:Organization of Enclave articles. Ausir 22:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Grizzly's Reedit Assesment - Power of Logic vs Facts

 * rethink tense of descriptions - is present really relevant for 2243 as well as 2277? (eg. does the Enclave Control Company still live?)
 * It's a matter of style. Present reads better - plus, there's no real evidence to the contrary. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * and third present isn now in 2008, do you really mean 2242 and 2277 events were contemporary?--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They're not that far apart. And ask yourself, would the Enclave really change that substantially just because their HQ was nuked? Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oil rig was a state, after nuke Enclave was just remnants of batallion-size army governed by crazy AI + some scientists
 * EDIT, all of them quite senile (are there in Fallout 3 any mentions about new manpower or Enclave children?)--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * advanced power armors mentioned as equipment - as it was said on forum it is standard, focus on exceptions (are to many details confusing?)
 * Yeah, forgot to add the T-51bs on the oil rig. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (Enclave) Combat Armor, leather armor like uniforms - do you neglect light troops?--dotz 19:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I haven't added that yet. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Little is known about the status of the EAF before 2077 - I am affraid there is no proof EAF existed than. To be controlled by covert organization Bloomfield should be subjugated on unofficial way. If sb uses Van Buren as a source, he/she shouldn't insert in the article claims about Enclave's military training superiority - equal was at least Reservation security under Col. Green's command.
 * Uh, the description of ghouls in the Reservation was referring to their in-game status. Realistically, though, Enclavers will have superior training by the virtue of them being pure humans and being direct descendants of pre-War US Army. Second, the EAF - there's no indication they didn't exist, and I don't find it unreasonable for the Enclave to maintain a small security force. Every conspiracy has it's soldiers. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * speculation, academic discussion--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Logical inference. It's not speculation, it's common sense and logic.Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have to decide than about UAF precedensor - hypothetical covert Enclave security or USAF. Little is known about the status of the EAF before 2077 contains, uh..an truth deficit - better is Nothing is known about the status of the EAF before 2077, so whole sentence is useless. More probable is way of seizing some USAF remnants and and recreating it.--dotz 21:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Reading whole sentence I can see I was a bit unfair (it is still an eloquence show, not a real information), but... the Enclave controlling the United States government and Army indicates, that before the war the Enclave didn't controlled Marine Corps, US Navy, US Air Force and Coastal Guard. Of course we can talk days and hours about "common sense" of words (I'll do it later), but I suggest here to use more exact language (I mean: US Armed Forces). It would be honest to say also, that "Enclave Armed Forces" name was invented by Ausir (with simplifying original title of article) and never appeared in Fallout 2.--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * With the great nuclear devastation of 2077 and the subsequent collapse of the United States, Enclave members and loyalists have relocated to reinforced locations across the United States[1], with the headquarters being estabilished on the Poseidon Oil Rig. Additionally, numerous military stockpiles were commandeered, either remotely or by the evacuating Enclavers themselves, providing the organization with necessary ordnance. - 'hidden bases all over the shards of old California doesn't make equation with quotated earlier claim, there was not other primary (2077) Enclave's base, but only the oil rig.
 * This is in conjunction with statements from A. Ron Meyers and Navarro techs. It all indicates that the Enclave has other, smaller bases hidden all over the United States. Think about it - would they really play va banque and lay everything on one Californian card? Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * speculation, such bases could be established or reactivated after the war, RAM and other technicians aren't a good source for XXI and XXII century events--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, logical reasoning and inference. The Enclave also lacks the necessary manpower or construction materials to build new outposts from scratch. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is not a bilding a new outposts, but when they were activated (what about Navarro? despite the fact it was some Poseidon facility, it looks quite new)--dotz 22:00, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So? We do not need to know the time of their activation to know they were there. Navarro was probably a pre-war facility, adapted (or maybe already existing) for Enclave purposes, with them running recruits through a "scrub this place clean" drill. I can actually imagine Dornan watching the recruits like a hawk while they polish the walls. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, forget Navarro stuff - I'll try not to insert there digressions. Check the next tiret for continuation.--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Any story before distinction for Enclave members and loyalists?--dotz 22:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * In addition, numerous other outposts were present across the United States, either manned or automated (such as the Raven Rock military base. - please indicate there that it is 2277 year status, East Coast.
 * That's not referring to Enclave checkpoints. It refers to Enclave bases and stashes hidden all over the United States. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * no proofs, in F2 was described California status only, such statement needs explanation why Navarro was newly established base (I am scared with suggesting such a thing, but try to check Enclave bases for information how many and what kind of Enclave mainland bases it was possible to prove theoretically)--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Logical reasoning and common sense. I also don't treat your calculations as evidence of any kind dotz, sorry - the factual base you use is incomplete and flawed, and when the foundations are flawed, so is the entire structure. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You really haven't read it. There was no calculations (as far as I remeber), just some logical thinking based on quotations. May be this part of dispute should be based on fair crticism of sources? (give me your proofs, not your logical thinking)--dotz 22:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence to support either views. I'm merely making a logical extrapolation based on available data... and the fact that the US military has hundreds of military bases across the United States, and it's quite probable that Enclave would be aware of them and control several remotely. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The word is remotely. Remote control of some facilities is quite contrary with statement, that some military stockpiles were commandeered by the evacuating Enclavers themselves. About number of active mainland bases (1 - Navarro)check also at President's dialogue file. I am affraid also, that Raven Rock base wasn't remotely controlled by the "oil rig" Enclave - it became Enclave owned when Eden appeared as US President (nobody haven't told me yet how many about Eden knew the "oil rig" Enclave)--dotz 22:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Starting to reconsider crude assesment with FoB statement: In March 2077, prepared for a nuclear or biological attack from China, the President and the Enclave retreated to remote sections around the globe and make contingency plans for continuing the war (final conclusion after collecting of all sources)--dotz 21:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Sentence concerning navy doesn't need separate subparagraph.
 * It's there for easier navigation. Person wanting to look it up won't have to read the entire article. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * and why reference concerninig non-canon source (GNN news transcript) was thrown out?
 * Good point, I'll fix it Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * One of the most deadly encounters in the wastes, Enclave Patrols are composed of three troopers in advanced power armor, usually armed with varius energy pistols or infantry support weapons such as Avenger Miniguns. - What about Fallout 2?
 * That IS Fallout 2. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * so please point where I can spot 3 troop patrols equipped with Avenger Miniguns, we do not describe mods here--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because YOU haven't met a squad with a soldier carrying an avenger minigun doesn't mean others didn't. Wander around Navarro long enough and you'll meet one surely.Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll do it (really I had never aqquired Vindicator there), but I am affraid I have not problem with maths - Enclave Partols there consisted of 4 troops, 8 troops (12?), and any other numbers are irregular and possible may be when there is no place for fourth troop only (mountains?), but I don't remember any mountains in Navarro perimeter.--dotz 22:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There were always "mountain terrain" encounters. As for numbers, correct them. Three or four, there's no real difference either way. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You have seen 3 (there? ), Per - 3 and 7, I have seen 3 in mountains, 4 and 8 on the desert. If there's no real difference, I won't trust your logic.--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Checked today. There was some guy wielding some minigun in some encounters (good point, after 11 years of playing I have encountered that, may be unpathed game have no minigun encounters?). Going back to article content/quotation - infantry support weapons such as Avenger Miniguns suggeste there were more infantry support weapons (wich I thinh is unlikely).--dotz 19:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 5 Example units and squads - (1) What is the diffrence between Enclave unit and squad (source, source!)? (2) And why the oil rig guard unit is not enough notable to be present in the article (it was the largest one in 2242). (3) Was RHO Experiment a unit or a squad?--dotz 19:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've noted those that are actually met in-game and play a significant role. Now, tell me, why do you state that the Oil Rig guards were a separate unit of their own? Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Guard unit had Guard Barracks (level/map). Now answer exactly that 2 left questions, please.--dotz 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. Unit as in "military unit" (EC Company), squads as in "groups of soldiers.
 * 2. They weren't named in any way.
 * 3. It was an experiment.
 * Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (1) squad?, what is your source - logic once again?, (2) named in PIP-boy map as well as here: QITURTRM.MSG, (3) so "military unit" or "group of soldiers"?--dotz 22:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't care what wikipedia says, I use comon English language that everyone can understand and is unambiguous enough. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for that socratic dialogue (logic origins from philosophy). Just see at your section's title - if a squad is not a unit, there shold be some "groups of soldiers", that are not "military unit". Wich one? (title suggestion: Example units and squads and whatever ). With comon English language that everyone can understand "Experiment" is not a "military unit" nor "groups of soldiers" (suggestion: RHO Experiment security). You have probably really good reason not to mention Navarro security detachment.--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * US Chemical Corps, in 2241 under the command of Lt. Col. Charles Curling - not a part of EAF?
 * Nope. Lt. Col. Dr Charles Curling is a scientist, not a soldier. There's nothing implying that the ChemCorps were part of the EAF - hell, the EAF grunts in Mariposa refer to them as eggheads.Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Where's the Lt. Col. part from, then? Ausir 23:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Served in the military before/Honorary/Happens to be an officer AND a researcher/etc. Basically, apart from Curling's rank there's absolutely nothing implying the EAF are their mother unit. On the contrary, there are statements stating the opposite. EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Azurdia <-- Soldier, scientist, doctor etc. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 00:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ...and Corps is a very standard description for scientific organization, Curling signed himself as Lt. Col., retired status is marked like: Lt. Col. (ret.) (BTW as honorary is refered full rank or post, never Lt. Commander, Lt. Colonel or Lt. Governor, etiquette lacks?)--dotz 14:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * {115}{}{Welcome to the Chemical Corps section, trooper. I'm Lt. Col. Dr. Charles Curling. Now that we've been introduced - get the hell out of my lab.} - civilian scientist?--dotz 15:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt very much that the writer cared about such miniscule detail. Lt. Col. Dr. reads better too. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Would you like to explain, why do you considered whole USCC section as superfluous - if you decided it wasn't a part of UAF it needed separate article. You had content prepared to move, not to delete.--dotz 19:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point, I'll fix it. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We still have organization led by active officer and named "Corps", however subordinated to Cabinet and empolying civilians (however I'll check if they were armed like technicians)--dotz 22:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What? There's no indication that he is an active officer (and seriously, WTF. Do you think he'd introduce himself as Lt. Col. (ret) Dr.?) nor that he's subordinated to the Cabinet or that he's emplying civilians. You're really stretching it, dotz. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 23:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * On the same way there is no indication that he is an inactive officer. BTW there are two ways of understanding the "Armed Forces" meaning - armed fighting guys (or how little Johny does imagine armed forcesFile:Paladin.jpg) or whole organization (including R&D branch such as USCC and numerous support units - in real world even 80% of armed forces manpower)--dotz 21:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The question is also, why did in Fallout 2 appeares organization named after real-world US Army branch Chemical Corps?--dotz 11:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Command of Augustus Autumn's father - another proof USCC members were lame civilians.--dotz 00:30, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What exactly perimeter did defend the EC Company?--dotz 13:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I see auxillary questions are needed (answer with logic is welcome): Did it defends naval perimeter around the oil rig? (Chosen One asked, if Granite can swim in advanced power armor). Did it defends naval and/or land perimeter around Navarro? And what is that Enclave perimeter? And what exactly does WTF abbreviation mean?--dotz 20:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Enclave Armed Forces are the military arm of the Enclave, the shadow government dating to before the Great War. - per se definition, including unnecessary for armed forces article Enclave origin explanation.--dotz 11:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Enclave Control (EC) Company - A military company ... - another funny definition - do we know non-military line units? I hope our young users, the main target of reedited article, do not need such childish explanation, when they understand the title of the section (or the section's title is poor and have to be supported by further strange explanations?, logic supported by knowledge is terrible tool).--dotz 21:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * the Enclave presence of the Oil Rig indicates that at least some kind of a security force was present - is it possible to explain wider that example of logical thinking?--dotz 00:21, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Enclave Main Command was located on the Poseidon Oil Rig, where the Commander-in-Chief (the President) and other high ranking officials were also located - Do we know any USAF high ranking officials located on the oil rig? If they are civilians only, there is no need to mention them (check section's title).--dotz 00:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC) As well as Secret Service agents.--dotz 20:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Promised

 * light troops features, (Enclave) Combat Armor, leather armor like uniforms
 * USCC article

--dotz 20:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Other bases dossier

 * Fallout 3 - Raven Rock base (for sure when Eden became the President, uninhabited before Autumns forces arrival?, can be considered as a kind of conditionally remotely - via Eden - controlled base)
 * Fallout 2 statements:
 * msg files (tbc with links):
 * Enclave technicians, Navarro - the oil rig was the main base, there were other outposts there, but no north of Navarro (conclusion - at least two more outposts; outposts, not bases - slight difference, but...)
 * President - Navarro was an isolated base (high level ignorant or inconsistency)
 * Meyers - FOB was possible to find in some Enclave bases
 * AHS-9 - the Enclave had hidden bases all over the shards of old California (outside source, however knows where Navarro is located, Hubologists patrolled SF perimeter and had their own shack somewhere there)
 * remote control: PoseidoNet terminal in Gecko, all clear signal for Vault 13 (possibly other Vaults, Vault 8, according to Fallout Bible the Enclave didn't care of them)
 * in-game experience:
 * Navarro is hidden location until Vertibird plans quest appears, however all the time Enclave patrols keep clean area of three quadrants distance from Navarro quadrant,
 * there were no other defended such way areas, hypothetical hidden bases were unspottable, their hypothetical low profile wasn't explained by any source (not manned?, outside Fallout 2 worldmap?, no similar explanation/sources for hypothetical low profile on the southern California area, southwest and middlewest, see below for the Enclave's absence in some significant places there); to start operations in the Capital Wasteland Eden needed Autum's complement,
 * place from where replacements came is not certain ("arch" mentioned, some other outpost?, dialogue options concerning problems with obtaining armor there are probably not active)
 * Fallout Bible:
 * (In March 2077, prepared for a nuclear or biological attack from China, the President and) the Enclave retreated to remote sections around the globe - the Enclave could retreat to some remote sections around the globe, extremal (less possible?) condition - there were two remote sections, one for the President, one for the Enclave; some remote sections around the globe were visible on the map in the conference room in the oil rig's Executive Office,
 * the Enclave had various other than the Poseidon oil rig installations, where dr. Henry used to work with cyber-genetic research program, one of those places was cybernetic maintenance facility
 * Van Buren: MacArthur Army Base (earlier status not certain) and Bloomfield - before the war only,
 * Sawyers PnP - Poseidon Energy's facilities continue to be used by the broken remnants of the Enclave following the Chosen One’s assassination of the Enclave’s U.S. President and the destruction of their Poseidon oil tanker headquarters off of the California coast.
 * There was no the Enclave presence concerned with the government-connected or Poseidon facilities like:
 * located in old California and near its borders: Hubologists HQ on the San Francisco airfield with space shuttle present, San Francisco and Los Angeles gasoline facilities, Sierra Army Depot, "Toxic Caves" storage area, Lost Hills Bunker, West Tech Research Facility (Glow) or the Environmental Protection Agency (cut off),
 * located on Van Buren area: Hoover Dam, the Nursery, Bloomfield Space Center - where the Enclave members were present before the War only, Tibbets prison, Eagle Rock's AGRICOLA lab and not exactly governmental, but funded by military Boulder Dome or Senator Todd Peterson's secret bunker (financed with help of Poseidon Oil and the Enclave),
 * Pentagon, located in the D.C.
 * Fallout 3 - Enclave wasn't able to gain access to the Vault 101.

--dotz 21:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)--dotz 15:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Other bases dossier summary

 * it is possible the Enclave had hidden bases in the California/some unknown cyber-genetic research facilities somewhere close, some unknown Poseidon facilities, some unknown government facilities, MacArthur Army Base
 * it is possible the Enclave remotely controlled Vaults (but used V13 only) at least on limited way - some unknown Poseidon facilities, some unknown government facilities/initially - some cyber-genetic research facilities, MacArthur Army Base
 * it is possible the Enclave controlled some unknown "remote section or sections around the globe" other than the oil rig
 * the Enclave can't be encountered in the southern California, southwest (with exception of Autumn's ragtag lost group - unique encounter), middlewest and Capital Wasteland - before Autumn's arrival.

"some unknown" is not quite equal to "numerous other outposts" and "numerous military stockpiles", there were very wide areas, where Enclave's presence is not proven also

--dotz 22:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Merging
I think this paged SHOULD be merged. It can help with the cleanup, and both pages describe more-or-less the same thing.


 * sign in,
 * cleanup is very welcome
 * when you are going to delete sth you didn't insert (eg. UJ path image), try to explain why are you doing such thing
 * more-or-less the same thing - well, if the same thing are state and its armed forces
 * how are you going to merge talk pages and history of this page? (chek very previuos, ante dispute history of this page, it was really independent page earlier)--dotz 14:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

i have been noticing the way the enclave set up camps in fallout 3 and i have to say they good stratgies in raven rock. most of the camps are located at power stations and gas stations and major roads. theoratical this is a good idea but no one would go for gas of travel one roads but the lights is a good idea.TJH333777

Past tense?
Shouldn't this article be in the past tense rather than the present, ie. they "were" the most powerful military power in the wastes rather than them still being so, as shown by the updated canon of New Vegas at the least. Wyrmalla 16:46, January 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Some issues get back. I was talking about tempus question years ago. --Dotz 19:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Enclave Motives?
I find it hard to believe that the United States actually spiritually survived through the Enclave and such. Fallout always has that feeling of a blank slate from nuclear fire, and the Enclave are still "fighting the war" like wasteland robots, unaware that China isn't even interested in the U.S. Hell, China probably thinks the U.S doesn't even exist anymore. Yet the Enclave are still simply going all Muammar Gaddafi on technical U.S citizens (mutants in their eyes) and fighting non-existent communism. - Guest, March 22, 2011 16:07 (UTC)