Talk:Catherine (Fallout 3)

opening
her legs are clearly black in that birth sequence, not white.

Race of Mom
Seeing the bull**** argument below, I think this should be pointed out: Why does it matter? In the end anyway, your character is whatever race you're going to make it after all, and Dad is going to adjust to be the same race as you, so it won't be like "HOW IN THE HELL DID THAT HAPPEN" when your mom is black, your dad is white and you're Asian. Besides, mixed couples isn't really all that uncommon in Fallout 3, example: Cindy Cantelli and her husband, Paulie Cantelli are a mixed couple. The game is just being as realistic as it possibly can when it comes to human interpersonal relations. One more thing, why are people still dubious of the canonicity of her racial appearance if they have (cut but still valid) a photo of Mom and Dad, and her game model is African American by default? I mean, get over it. She was black. That's all. Just putting my two cents. Breetastic 01:40, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * I will again state what you have looked over. 1: The scene has heavy Imagespace modification.  Making her black could just as likely be to get better contrast.  2: That picture frame mesh is NOT in the game, it is cut content and therefore not canon.  3: The fact that the Player Character can be a wide variety of races means that Catherine could not possibly be any one fixed race.  It's simple genetics.  Ethnic traits don't disappear instantly with just one generation of interbreeding with another ethnicity. --MadCat221 03:21, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, James is the race of the player. If you play a black character, James will be black. --173.51.148.104 07:28, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Spawn Catherine NPC?
Since she's rendered in the cutscene, has anybody found an ID to spawn Catherine?

The base id is 0005eddf

Catherine's origins
Can someone explain this further? We know that James was originally a wastelander and scientist with Project Purity, but was Catherine also from the wasteland? Or was she a Vault scientist that met James during one of the "expeditions" the Overseer mentions in his logs?

Odd...
I could have sworn when I was a baby the legs I saw from first person mode were white... Perhaps it has something to do with race, but I doubt it, as even James wont change until later in the game. Also, I find it curious that she in rendered so well despite the fact you aren't supposed to see her. She isn't some low quality "throwaway" model. She's as good quality-wise as any other model, and despite a clipping issue with her arm I see nothing wrong with the way she is posed on the table. Can anyone confirm if her spoken lines are lip-synched or anything, because if they are I would wonder if you were meant to see her at some point.
 * I've found the reason is due to lighting, possibly, as her race is as ambiguous as your character. There may also be some kind of trigger that changes it before hand, but I didn't notice anything going off. I don't think it matters much either way. 74.5.111.155 08:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Her race is definitely not ambiguous. She is listed as african-american in the geck. I stumbled upon her by accident browsing through it.--99.184.21.230 13:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, the fact you aren't supposed to see her at any point shows shes supposed to be ambiguous. Being so, they probably just slapped her with any model, as it didnt matter anyway. You aren't supposed to see her. The fact you have to go against the boundaries of the game, into the GECK or free motion camera via console, confirm this. Simply do not take it as canon. Seriously, what did you expect? them to make her a blurry half-assed model when they have readily available models on hand to simply slap in and forget? Come on people.. ~InternetDouche
 * Several notes (some from the other debate on this talk page:
 * 1: NPCs (as opposed to the other actor classes, Creatures or Talking Activators) all have a standardized body and face model, so that's what appears.
 * 2: The scene has heavy imagespace modification, and having dark skin like that would make color contrast better (color contrast is how the human eye discerns things).
 * 3: The only way to see anything beyond the leg is via means not meant to be used during normal gameplay. No other content seen in-game shows Catherine.
 * The matter will hopefully be addressed by an official statement from GStaff soon... --MadCat221 05:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Catherine African-American?
While browsing trough the NIF files, I stumbled upon a picture (e.g. actual picture in-game, one that is framed, you know what I mean), named vmomdadpic01.nif. In it, I actually saw a picture of James aside an African-American woman, the same one even that you could "see" in the cut-scene.

I actually went and searched for that same model in the GECK, and it was also there (just search VMomDadPic01), but, as you can see, it's not in use. As it was cut content the canonity of this is debatable, but it does add the possibility. GaryCXJk 12:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd call it non-canon too, because genetics would make it impossible to have a pasty-white player character if one of the parents is african-american. --MadCat221 03:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's possible among mixed couples, even if rather rare. Ausir 03:44, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * But how mixed is the african partner in the couple? African americans that are truly of total african heritage are rare. And it's not just skin tone either, there's a distinct facial structure as well. How could an african-american mother have a child that's a porcelain-white-skinned redhead? --MadCat221 03:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, it does happen. Ever heard of dominant/recessive genes? Such combination of genes that would cause a black woman to have a white baby is very rare, but it's not impossible (either most of his genes would need to be dominant, her egg would need to have mostly "white" alleles that were recessive in herself and were thus not demonstrated in the phenotype, or a combination of the two). It's really not unheard of.
 * In my last two runs of the game, I've had an African-American chosen character - the first run has James with a bit lighter skin than my character. The second run, I chose another AA race - but did the tuners so he was porcelain-stark white. This caused James to actually have near-black skin, to where I could barely see details on his face. African Albinos exist, so why not in Fallout?
 * Sure, her appearance is of dubious canonicity because she's not normally seen in-game, but it has nothing to do with genetics. Ausir 04:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not dubious, because she appears on photos scattered throughout the fucking Jefferson Memorial. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/5/5c/Scribe.jpg/15px-Scribe.jpg Tagaziel (call!) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * First, your foul mouth is not appreciated. And at the wiki head admin too. Second, no it is not all over the Jefferson Memorial. I have checked, and the picture has zero world references. Do you have definitive GECK-based proof that they appear? The answer is no. --MadCat221 04:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * To drive the point home, here is an image proving that it doesn't appear in-game and is an abandoned-in-place asset. Note that "count" and "users" are both 0, meaning it is not used anywhere or by anything. --MadCat221 05:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ...And to settle the matter, I've PM'd GStaff on the BethSoft forums, for a "Fawkes Is Male" type definition on Catherine's race once and for all. --MadCat221 05:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * First, you talking back to an admin who knows Ausir is not appreciated. I have a really short temper when it comes to people exhibiting Wookiepedia levels of intellectual ineptitude - if (even an unused) image is present in the game files and the GECK appearance corresponds with it, that's how Catherine looks. End of story. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/5/5c/Scribe.jpg/15px-Scribe.jpg Tagaziel (call!) 09:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Veiled threats against one with an opposing view of abusing powers afforded by high position and with association with the top brass... insults... and incorrect knowledge of how this wiki works (check next section below). Keep it coming. --MadCat221 22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

One gets angry when one realizes the invalidity of their own argument. Such is the case now. Apparently non-canonical cut-content equals to de facto truth. Such a closed minded view, then he turns around and calls the kettle black. Astounding. Well despite what you may erroneously believe, cut content is not often considered canon, and from the look of the wiki, not here either. It was not taken out due to time constraints nor bugs, if it were, that is something that could've EASILY be amended with a patch update, and yet it is not so, Why was it taken out if not for these causes? I submit to you that it is because they wanted her ambiguous, something so small as a picture cut from the game? they didn't want the player seeing it, and that's because they wanted her race and appearance to be unknown and thus ambiguous, perhaps at some point she had a pre-defined look, but it seems that either way, ultimately she was left to be indistinct purposely. Quite a few users also have pointed out the use of making her dark skinned to contrast with the environment and actually /aid/ her ambiguity, a technique that is actually often used, and thus is a valid argument. You've yet to provide a rebuttal to that, you've yet to do anything but threaten and insult. The basis behind your side has been pointing out a completely different game's psuedo-similar situation, and unsubstantiated claim that since its in the files, it 'must' be canon, disproven easily by the fact that by that same logic, everything cut must therefore be canon; conflicts with the plot, or flow of the game notwithstanding. You're engaging in rabid intellectual dishonesty, absolutely refusing to take in any counter arguments, instead declaring something akin to "Im right, period". That is called a logical fallacy, but i wouldnt assume you know that. 72.167.36.70 05:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)E-Nomad
 * Because I am right. You have no right whatsoever to claim that you know what the intent of the developers was, especially not when it comes to Bethesda. They are well known for omissions, errors, scripting bugs and not restoring something unfinished, even if all it takes is changing a variable in the GECK. Given their track record, it is far more likely that they've simply forgot to place the picture in. Not the first time they forgot about something. http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/5/5c/Scribe.jpg/15px-Scribe.jpg Tagaziel (call!) 16:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm just a noob here, but this "Tagaziel" seems like a real dickcheese. If this is the type of guy who is chosen for admin around here (the type who assumes his opinion is always correct, even when it contradicts the estabished rules of the wiki, and then berates and insults those who do not agree with him), people aren't going to want to contribute to your wiki. CapAp 00:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dudes, give it a rest. It's over with. --MadCat221 02:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay guys, the actual reason I put up this topic was more as a suggestion to add the cut prop, or at least an image of the cut prop, to the page. I mean, there is already cut content on this site, content which could not be considered canon. The reason the picture should be there is to give a fair representation of everything we can find about this character. it's already not a lot, but at least we've got this prop picture. It fits nicely with the beta gauss rifle and the stinky cheese or whatever was cut from the game.--GaryCXJk 23:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean, it's pretty much like that Calvert dude having a picture of his invisible human self.--GaryCXJk 23:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Something wrong with being black?--Kirby888 05:25, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Like to point out something but Perhaps the picture of the african cathrine was perhaps just a concept artist messing arround so as a joke the animators made catherine black in the game as a sort of inside joke but she being black isint that inportent considering the fact your not ment to know what she looks like anyway.


 * -would someone just delete this all. "WD"

Taking a look
IMO these information belong to the discussion page, not to the article, or should at least be phrased less like facts, as the conclusions are incomplete and biased. Her "appearance" simply is the closest stock character to what is needed for that scene, mainly having dark skin (to only show her outline against the bright background light) and using a full model (to avoid having to make a custom model/class). Golan2781 14:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong direction
Mom in The Den links to this page, and there is no trace of the Mom from fallout 2, should there be an article about that mom?

Picture Removal
"In normal gameplay, she is not seen so as to better lend credibility to the wide variety of skin tones and facial options available to the player. "

For this reason, I think all pictures of Catherine should be removed. Or at least not featured as an official image of her. --MadCat221 02:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Thats crazy, you dont even see her, but think she should be removed, but the the Dad is white, and he definitely belongs in the game.--99.184.21.230 13:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, just because she is black, you want to throw the race card down. I believe the purpose of this wiki is to accurately convey information to any and all Fallout players. As such, any normally inaccessible content should not be considered canon, and thus should not be used in the character's official profile. However, her images can be moved to the bottom, as all her other images are.
 * Oh Christ, are you one of those tools that think that because much of KOTOR2's content is inaccessible due to time constraints or bugs, it's not canon? http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/5/5c/Scribe.jpg/15px-Scribe.jpg Tagaziel (call!) 09:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * First you have a foul mouth, now you're using derogatory names for those who disagree with you. Admin or no, your total lack of respect for those who disagree with you is astounding, ESPECIALLY considering you're an admin.  And if it isn't in the final released official product, then it isn't canon.  Heck, there's even a label for such things like Unique weapons never used.  Here is a quote for you: "Canonicity notice: Fallout 3 cut content--  The following is based on content which was cut from the final version of Fallout 3. It is not considered to be canon but may serve as "flavor material".  What the GECK sees is not the official canon, what is seen in the game is.  --MadCat221 22:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see any harm in using the picture in the infobox, but with the infobox description stating that she is not actually normally seen in-game. Similarly, we use concept art in infoboxes of some characters in Fallout that don't have in-game talking heads, like Razor. And yes, Mikael, try to be more civil next time. Ausir(talk) 23:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I shall abide. Since I haven't got an answer back from GStaff yet (he did reply that he's asking though), I think the proper term would be "dubious canonicity" which you coined.  --MadCat221 23:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Word from GStaff on Catherine's race
Here is a verbatim copy-paste of my PM exchange with Matt Grandstaff (handle "GStaff") on the official BSF concerning Catherine...

ME: There seems to be a point of contention on The Vault wiki over the race of Catherine AKA Mom in FO3. Her race is defined as African American, but it is believed that it is so to get an improved color contrast in a scene with very heavy imagespace modification.

So time for another "Fawkes Is Male" type declaration... Is Catherine's race African-American, or is it intended to be nebulous?

GSTAFF: I can ask...but does it really matter?

ME: I's mainly to cease the constant back-and-forth editing of that article. There seems to be a propensity to consider behind-the-scenes workings accidentally discovered as official on that wiki (like "The Brain" in Point Lookout).

GSTAFF: I did some checking...sorry, there's not a defined race for that character.

--MadCat221 22:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "There seems to be a propensity to consider behind-the-scenes workings accidentally discovered as official on that wiki (like "The Brain" in Point Lookout)." What is that supposed to mean? There is one picture of Calvert's actor NPC during Thought Control in the article which is labeled as "not meant to be seen during normal gameplay". -- Porter21 (talk) 22:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I added that "not meant to be seen" line to Calvert's page. --MadCat221 23:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't see how that supports your sweeping generalizing statement regarding the wiki as a whole. Maybe you can point me to the revision where it stated there was anything canon about the actor NPC? -- Porter21 (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And the fact that her race is not canon doesn't mean the image can't be used in the infobox, just like we use concept art in the infoboxes for some FO1 and 2 characters that don't have official in-game face images. Ausir(talk) 22:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, you didn't exactly mention all the evidence to Gstaff (the photo, in particular, even if cut from the final game). Ausir(talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Race
She was not ment to be seen, she is Everyrace!

The only reason why she is black is so she hides better in teh shadows...

They dont let you see her so you can be asian or Mexican.

So who really cares?

I know why  none of you  can't accept that she is black...you are all a bunch of racists!. The rule of canon says that each individual  decides what is canon  and what is not  when something is left undisclosed...  After analysing the existing evidence of  her race I concluded  that she WAS  meant to be black at some point and in my canon she is black!. Is very fascinating that  members of the fallout  community are assholes that insult new people and ban people just because they have different opinions eh.. No mutant allowed... cough duck and cover...and apparently here. that's why I'm a fan but isolated from the community...  go to hell, fuck you and have a  good day.

Spawning
Well, here's a distraction from the race debate! If spawned, she will be standing while in the console, but upon hitting the tilde key, she will float in air in a birthing position. If you, however, set her essential and "kill" her, she will get back up standing. Just some info for people who like to spawn NPCs in weird places. (As a side note, the James I ad already spawned went running off when I spawned Catherine. My dad is now somewhere in the wastes). --Valoopy 07:22, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Vault 21
Can someone remove this assumption? Since Gstaff confirmed Catherine's "no-race-defined" status, mentioning them possible having been in Vault 21 based on the picture alone would contradict her "no-race" status, it would suggest her appearence has been canonized at some point, which I to this day still have to see proven. --Radnus 15:51, May 26, 2011 (UTC)