Forum:R91 =/= M199

Recently the R91 and the M199 have been merged with what I know to be conjecture. The conjecture being that "since the R91 is the only US assault rifle seen in Fallout 3 and that it is the only one in Operation: Anchorage.

Before I lay my theories I would like to emphasis the facts of the weaponS;

This plaque clearly states that the M199 is the official infantry weapon of the United States Army. It also clearly states that it uses standard 5.56mm rounds.

While this entry clearly states that something called the "R Series" was used following the discontinuation of the "M series". In reality the "M" before the number of the rifle means "Model," it isn't part of a specific series. This entry clearly describe it being standard practice, for the National Guard, to use these weapons, during its "urban pacification operations." Making no reference to it being the standard issue weapon for the force.

The first four sentences clearly state why the Operation: Anchorage simulation is a bad representation of reality.

Now for the theories for which I have two;

1) The M199 is of the AR-15 platform 2) The assault rifle seen in the E3 Fallout 4 trailer is the M199
 * First off, this weapon existed, as the description for the 5.56mm ammunition specifically states that it was developed for the M16. Which makes the M16A1 canon, this combined with both the marksman carbine and assault carbine leads me to conclude that the platform was also very widespread across the modern American Military. So much so that a variant known as the service rifle was produced. My theory is that this is the variant of the platform that didn't need the, 7075 aluminum alloy, composite plastics and polymer materials. Making it a cheaper alternative to the resource stretched United States. Let's also not forget that Joshua Sawyer also states that the Survivalist's rifle is, albeit loosely, biased on the .50 Beowulf AR-15 platform conversion. Now you might be asking why would there be a conversion to this particular variant? My theory is that this platform, the AR15, was the "standard" of the armed forces. With other platforms performing other roles just like the Real-life modern military.
 * This weapon is neither the R91 G3 variant, nor a AR-15 variant, yet somehow this weapon is widespread enough to be commonly fielded.

Which is why I propose that we keep them separate until we have a clear reference to clear up this confusion.--Ant2242 (talk) 12:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Comments
I think that there's just too much inconsistency to go one way or the other. The placard says it's "modern" the standard issue infantry weapon, meaning it was around 2077 as the Anchorage Reclamation was ongoing/wrapping up. Chase's simulation of the reclamation is divorced from reality, sure, but it's that way to train soldiers how to deal with any of the crazy stuff the Chinese might have thrown at them; I don't think there would be any reason for Chase to not make the standard infantry weapon the one trainees use in the sim. Point for the R91 being the M199.

But then the terminal from the Outcasts (who descend from a military order and are likely well versed in military history as part of their heritage) says that the M series was discontinued in the early 21st century. This would disprove it as the standard issue infantry weapon because it conflicts with the placards information (unless the placard was >40 years old, which I sincerely doubt the Smithsonian Museum of American History would tolerate). That would be like the Smithsonian pointing to a M16 (a standard infantry issue during Vietnam) and saying it's still the official infantry issue of today's 2015 U.S. Army. Point for the R91 not being the M199.

I'm kinda hoping that the FO4 rifle is the M199 so we can put this to bed, but at the moment, the information is too contradictory to say the M199 definitive is/isn't the R91. --Kastera (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

There are no inconsistencies. M199 is the military designation of the R91 rifle adopted as the military service rifle. Here's why:


 * 1) The R91 is the only American rifle included in Fallout 3. There are no other rifles depicted in the game. If the designation M199 refers to a different rifle, why isn't it shown anywhere in the game?
 * 2) The R91 is depicted as being the service rifle of the United States military, particularly in the Operation: Anchorage simulation. Claiming that it isn't because the simulation is not a particularly reliable source is a very poor argument, as on that basis we can dismiss absolutely everything in it. Unless inaccuracies are specifically named, as is the case with Chimera's, it is baseless to claim that the inaccuracy exists just to prop up your argument.
 * 3) The R91 is the designation used by the manufacturer. This is the same situation as with the AR-15 platform manufactured by Colt. It was developed as the AR-15, while its military version was adopted as the M16. Why should this be any different for the R91, adopted as the M199?
 * 4) The R91 uses 5.56mm ammunition - the same type of round as the M199.
 * 5) The R91 has an unique ejection report, like the M199.

Finally, why would the Army National Guard be using a different rifle than the Army?

The conclusion is simple: The R91 is the M199.

Now, to counter points:


 * 1) There is zero basis for assuming that the term M series refers to the M numbers used by the United States military. The only "connection" is that they happen to share a letter. There's absolutely no reason to make that claim or connection inside the game.
 * 2) Fallout: New Vegas is irrelevant to this argument, as it was released three years after Fallout 3. Even if we account for that, there is no evidence to suggest that the assault carbine and marksman rifle were in any way connected to the service rifle of the United States military.
 * 3) What's more, whatever inspirations the weapons may have is completely irrelevant to the game. Sawyer even specifically stated that the weapons in the game are not weapons from real life. The battle rifle is not the M1 Garand. The .45 Auto submachinegun is not the M1 Thompson. This also illustrates the absurdity of claiming that the M series mentioned in the game is the same as the M numbers.
 * 4) The Brotherhood of Steel, for all of its technological refinement, is not the United States Army - and is specifically stated to largely disregard history. They aren't a perfectly credible source.

Why are we having this argument again? Tagaziel (talk) 13:08, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless there are objections backed up with in-game evidence, I'll return the articles to the rewrite stating that the R91 is the M199 in two days' time. Tagaziel (talk) 08:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I was hoping more people would comment by now but fine.


 * 1) The R91 is the only American rifle included in Fallout 3 — Because the Developers didn't bother to include more. Assuming they are the same is the fallacy, Argument from Ignorance.
 * 2) That the R91 is depicted as being depicted as the standard in the Operation: Anchorage simulation also falls under this category.
 * 3) You say that its the same, there is no evidence to support this.
 * 4) The R91, the Service rifle, the Marksman carbine, and the Fallout 4 Assault Rifle all use the 5.56mm round. This proves nothing.
 * 5) I can argue the Fallout 4 Assault Rifle has a more unique ejection system. As its magazine is on the left side of the weapon above the trigger-guard and grip.

The National Guard is specifically mentioned using the R91 in *one* specific function. As shown in game their arsenal is as varied as it is ancient. From M3A1 Grease Guns to modern energy weapons and robots.


 * 1) This also does NOT prove that they are the same weapon.
 * 2) No it is not. "No way connected," really? All three are of the same weapon platform.
 * 3) Those are not credible to this argument. The AR platform has been canonized by the Fallout guide and subsequent inclusions in the games. Such as the M16A1, Assault & Marksman carbines, and the service rifle.
 * 4) "The Brotherhood of Steel [...] aren't a perfectly credible source." You can say that again.

--Ant2242 (talk) 15:47, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

At the moment, it seems to by an AR15=M16 type deal and fewer assumptions have to be made in order to support them as being the same weapon.--Kastera1000

How is it that fewer assumptions equals correctness? We clearly don't have enough evidence to declare what the M199 is.--Ant2242 (talk) 17:31, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't really think R91 and M199 are the same. IMO, M199 should be treated as mentioned-only content. R-series may have superseded the M-series at some point, but this couldn't have made all the M rifles just vanish in thin air. Such re-armaments are not done so quickly. Both series may have coexisted for some time, with M199 slowly being removed from use.

Also, while those thoughts on R91 being the same as M199 are great and logical, they are still just speculations unless we have a confirmation.

As for why we don't see M199 anywhere, devs just could only include that many guns in the game. Every new gun means later release date and bigger budget. Basically the same reason why we only see a few dozens of people per vault at best, instead of hundreds. We cannot take every aspect of a game literally. I suggest you read a part of Canon article regarding videogames on Wookipedia. It has some great thoughts in it. wikia:starwars:Canon

--veryblackraven 17:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll just point out that there's nothing that says the M series is anything even remotely connected to the M numbers used by the military. Given that the plaque clearly states the M199 is the current service weapon of the United States military and the R91 is explicitly shown as the service weapon of the U.S. military in the Operation Anchorage simulation, I say that's a pretty definitive confirmation, Raven. Tagaziel (talk) 20:10, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I do not know much about weapons, or their history - I want to make that clear now, because I am not going to go through random websites to pretend as if I am knowledgeable on this matter. So if I say something wrong, please make sure to correct me here.

Now; what I do know, is that we have to take the Divergence into account - and because of the Divergence, which helps confirm that events such as WWII happened, that there are most certainly a variety of military-grade assault weapons still floating around in the U.S. Army, and that includes Fallout's U.S. Army. The R91 might be the current standard, but that does not help dissuade or confirm anything in regards to other standards, or even old military-hardware still being used from past wars.

I am afraid that my stance is a default one - if the R91 and M199 are designated differently, and we have no evidence that the two are one in the same, then I am under the impression that the least speculative route, is to assume that they are different weapons. If I have missed/glossed over anything, please let me know and I might amend my opinion on this matter. Thank you for the consideration. GarouxBloodline 20:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


 * When it comes to the arguments that I have read, the one that I find myself focusing on the most, is this one: "The R91 is the designation used by the manufacturer. This is the same situation as with the AR-15 platform manufactured by Colt. It was developed as the AR-15, while its military version was adopted as the M16. Why should this be any different for the R91, adopted as the M199?"


 * Can you please elaborate? If this is the norm in regards to how the military designates their hardware, then that will help give me a better clue. Because if this is a well established precedent, then I fully agree that the least speculative stance is to vote yes, unless further verification is provided to us. GarouxBloodline 20:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * He's implying that the R91 is to the M199 as the AR-15 is to the M16. There is however absolutely no confirmation of this.--Ant2242 (talk) 20:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that - what I am asking for, in regards to an elaboration, are documented cases where these hardware designations are shown to be a precedent throughout the U.S. Military. Because if a firm precedent can be established, then I will likely be more in agreement with Tag and Kas. GarouxBloodline 20:47, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Originally (I am not an expert in weaponology) weapons were given the designation of model by the year they were made "Model 1909 Army," "Colt 1851 Navy," "Springfield Model 1863," "M1903 Springfield" later begins designated "Model number" "M1", "M14", "M16." As a president however there is nothing that indicates the R91 is the M199.--Ant2242 (talk) 21:23, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Got some input from what I would consider a specialist, and I find myself in agreement with his professional opinion on this matter. For reference. On one hand, the precedents might be there, and that is something we should take into consideration - on the other hand, outright suggesting that these two weapons are one-in-the-same, is a bit too far of a jump for me, and feels like the kind of speculation that would make us feel a wee bit foolish should evidence to the contrary arise. GarouxBloodline 21:36, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm resetting the indent to demonstrate. I'd also like to point out, again, that there's no basis for assuming that the M series refers to the M16 or any other rifle in U.S. service, because the M series is not the same thing as the M numbers. Ant insists on making a connection where there is none. There is absolutely no confirmation of the fact that the M series refers to the M16 or any other rifle in U.S. service (yes, I'm repeating myself):


 * The AR-15 has already been demonstrated.
 * The CAR-15 is an even more obvious example.
 * The FN Minimi was adopted as the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon.
 * The Beretta 92F was adopted as the M9 pistol.
 * The Stoner 63 has been used as M63, (and XM22, XM23, XM207, but that's beside the point).
 * The H&K HK416 is used in one of its variants as the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.

And, of course, there's the fact that it's the rifle seen in the hands of United States Army servicemen in the Operation Anchorage simulation. It's confirmed by another DLC that the sim is accurate insofar the equipment of the United States Army is concerned, as Elliott Tercorien, a medic of the United States Army, spawns with the M199/R91.

The M199 is stated to be the current service weapon of the United States military. It's not speculation. Speculation is assuming that the designation refers to an unseen, completely different rifle, despite the fact that an Army medic spawns with the service rifle of the Army right in front of your eyes. Tagaziel (talk) 21:44, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait... my experience with O:A is a bit shaky, as it has been 2+ years since I last played Fallout 3's DLC. I remember that you have load-outs for whichever squad-mates you decide to deploy - so are you saying that the requisitions state that certain troops will utilize the M199, and are seen spawning with the R91 AR? GarouxBloodline 21:55, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not conflating anything. If the "R Series" and "M Series" are for "Stent Security Solutions" personal records then, fine, but there is nothing that states that the R91 is the M199. As for the loadout of the American rifleman they use the R91, not that we can describe the simulation as "accurate." And as the terminal entries are considered they are generic, for example "Assault Rifle," "10mm Submachine Gun," "Sniper Rifle." Not that they are GECK checked. I am almost finished with FNV however. As for Elliot Tercorien I am still pointing to the lack of additional weapons by the developers.--Ant2242 (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So whatever contradicts your argument is "developer laziness"? Tagaziel (talk) 06:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Votes

 * R91 = M199 (Yes the same weapon)
 * Yes Tagaziel (talk) 08:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes Kastera (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2015 (UTC): At the moment, it seems to by an AR15=M16 type deal and fewer assumptions have to be made in order to support them as being the same weapon. I'm going to bump the other admins so this isn't just a "simple majority wins."
 * R91 =/= M199 (No not the same weapon)
 * No Ant2242 (talk) 15:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No veryblackraven 17:55, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No This vote may change depending on further input - I am well aware that I might be missing rather important information on this topic. GarouxBloodline 20:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No I'd wait for F4 for more clarification and then bring this up again afterwards. Nitty the Kitty! 02:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No They're honestly probably different weapons. It wouldn't be the first time 3 mentioned a weapon that isn't actually in-game *cough*X277 railgun*cough*. Here's hoping FO4 clears up whatever the M199 is and doesn't. Shadowrunner(stuff) 05:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Outcome
The articles stay separate. All related articles have been amended to reflect the consensus. *grumbles* Tagaziel (talk) 10:37, 15 July 2015 (UTC)