Talk:Lover's mark stashes

Locations
Does anyone know how many there are, and where? If I remember right, there is one in the villa clinic where christine is. Xa3  talk  Contributions  18:52, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
As far as I'm concerned, it can stay. Needs to be expanded with the locations of all the stashes and a bit of wikifying, but then it will be worth a page I think. Jspoel 18:14, July 24, 2011 (UTC)

It is a work in progress. These drop locations are scatered all over the Sierra Madrid grounds, no less than 1 location per Zone, so far. Given time the article will fill out as more and more active players find the time to track their exact locations.


 * As it is now it still causes no harm. Some might even see it as an unmarked goal to find them all.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 19:28, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Agreement with Saint Pain. --The Arcadian Rook(talk)User blog: Arcadian Rook 20:18, July 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * Firstly I wish people would stop deleting the deletion notice until the topic has been completed. But here are the issues, nothing makes these locations of any importance. Nothing makes the loot any different to other random loot scattered, around the wastes other than a heart being above or near the loot, which at best is a trivia bit of info. And finally, nothing links to this page which makes it next to useless for being informative to anyone and also makes it an orphaned page. So until someone can give me a good reason why these so called Lover's mark stashes are of any importance or interest, then it is likely to get removed. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 21:24, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Clarification
As for my part, I have no idea who has tried to "delete the deletion notice" but to that point, why is there such a rush to delete this with out ever giving a real chance to research it? Not all the marks have even been found yet & as for links, I have listed the named zones I've already found including a conection to the marked stash locations and a quest feature, the Puesta del Sol switching station's power control box. I even added a gallery to begin highlighting the exact location of these marks. Unfortunately with in minutes it was deleted by another.


 * If you say it's not linked or incomplete, then I say give me a chance to fix it, please ?


 * Allow me the chance show it's merit. If all I do is deleted within moments how can anyone say it was given a fair chance?

What is the standard time generally allowed to fix an article ? May I please at least be allowed to try with out instant deletions the moment I add content that might help make my case for keeping the article?

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 03:20, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am in no rush to delete it, hence why I put up a deletion tag to start the discussion, instead of out right deleting it. And my objection isn't that it is incomplete either. I simply cant see merit in having this page, even once it is completed. This is why I have put it up for discussion as to whether it is needed at all, simply saying you are going to add more locations isn't convincing. What I want to know is what is the purpose of this page once it is completed and how it is notable in anyway other than a bit of trivia with the love hearts. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 03:29, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

The purpose of the Lover's mark stashes page is to provide :


 * 1. A comprehensive overview of marked locations throughout the Dead Money world.


 * 2. To provide Wiki knowledge seekers & dedicated gamers a guide to find all that can be found relating to Dead Money and in this case locations and or related items to the Lover's mark stashes.

I must boldly note : YOU CAN'T GO BACK IN.. This Wiki is "IMO" more than just a bunch of plagiarists who cut and paste from strategy guides. With this unnamed challenge we proudly say "I don't need yer stink'n challenge rewards ~ I found all you hid " and it is this Wiki Vault that broke that ground to clear a path.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 12:54, July 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * But it isn't providing a comprehensive overview of marked locations, it is only providing a overview of locations with a certain piece of graffiti nearby. It is actually restrictive in this respect. What about all the locations that do not have this mark, or any mark? Why are they less important? Why should these not be included? Why is the actual mark of any importance? Everyone is arguing that knowing where this loot is invaluable, which is fine. But this isn't the point I am trying to make. I am trying to determine why the lovers mark is important enough to have its own page, not the stashes or there contents. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 10:44, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

The Lover's Mark doesn't have a page, the stashes do. And it isn't strange for graffiti to mark something. In FO3 it marked raider territory, it often marks hollowed out rocks, and left clues for future add ons. But these mark an important part of Dead Money and so there should be a page for them. The Vault is supposed to be the ultimate guide on Fallout and if this is kept out then it simply isn't. -The Polar Bear lives 15:17, August 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * That is where you are wrong, the page is a lovers mark page and not the stashes. This is simple fact, as you are excluding all the stashes that don't have this mark. Also by the fact that one of these Lover marks noted in the page doesn't even have a stash!!!! You argument is failing because you cant separate the two different things. I wouldn't have an issue with a page dedicated to ALL stashes in Dead Money, with a note about the nature of the Lovers marks stashes and other such stashes (Dean's secret stashes etc.) That is is what the nature of the Vault is, a comprehensive overview of all things. However it doesn't provide pages for trivial facts, those facts should be incorporated into the notes section of a main page.


 * Your examples are perfect example of this. Lets take hollowed-out rocks, Do we do a page just for lovers mark hollowed-out rocks. No, we do a comprehensive page for ALL hollowed-out rocks. Where such information as graffiti also being markers for these locations, should be added (preferable noting all the different kinds of graffiti for completeness). Raider marks, do we have a page dedicated for this little titbit of information. Again, no. Such information would be included in the main page. And do you really want me to go into how the future add-on graffiti hints went into the actual add-on page in question and not a page dedicated to the graffiti itself.


 * So explain to me why this is case is any different or unique, because that is what I am calling into question. Not the information about the stashes themselves or the importance of knowing the location of the stashes (those can be added to an overview page with all stashes in Dead Money). My concern is about the lovers mark stashes and how are they any more important than any other stash in Dead Money. Because if there is no in-game lore to these marks, we are essentially writing it into the lore of the Fallout universe, saying that the lovers marks have more importance in terms of lore and also game play, than the stashes that don't have this mark (or other marks if they exist). User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 20:08, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Reason for non-deletion
The page might be useless to 99.9% of people but that doesn't mean it should be deleted its a part of Fallout just like every other page. Maybe it should be combined with something else. We could possibly make an in-general "stashes" page for the different ones found throughout New Vegas but not all out deletion. Michael Sam 18:06, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not advocating the deletion of the information, just the purpose of the page. I am on the simple thought that it is trivia and such should be a foot note else where. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 19:49, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

The amount of data already added makes the Lover's marks more than trivia.. Trivia is who voiced a role or Bethesda programmers said "yada yada". These marked drop location inpact the players experience & survival.


 * These marks & the items found at there locations are useful features of the Dead Money world. They have been referenced in dialog " Exact quotes pending further edits ". The Lover's mark has more value as a Dead Money world featured attraction than we have had time to discover. It should remain a full article because there is even more to be added to it's content and it already has won the support of the majority of those who care enough to voice an opinion. Cup.jpgPain →  That was broke a'fore I got here! 07:01, July 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am still waiting for how this reference and how it is actually referencing just the lovers mark ones and not other stashes, say like Dean's. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 20:12, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Backround Evidence
Personally I believe it deserves its page because it was mentioned multiple times. "That people over the years left food and medicine for those who came latter but some other people booby trapped them to get ahead of them out of greed", or words to that effect. Which should be on the page as references. Its therefore part of the survival horror backstory and essential to truly understand the Sierra Madre Story as a whole.--Ant2242 16:37, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Where is this stated? and how is it reference's to these stashes alone and not in general. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 19:43, July 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think he was referring in general, but the Lover's mark are the most prominant stashes in Dead Money.--Ant2242 20:18, August 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * I remember hearing something to that effect, Ant. Don't remember who said it, Elijah maybe but I remember it. I think the page should stay. I'll let people playing dead money know where to find some extra supplies and god knows those are helpful. Richie9999 12:08, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Dean dose make referances to items being left by turists and and he also warns that the inhabitants, Ghost people some times leave items as bait.. Sorry I don't have the exact quotes, maybe someone eles will have the presence of thought to record the exact lines to improve the article later, it just did not occure to me at the time but now that I know what Ghost ment by "References" I can honestly say, they out there and sooner or later someone will quote them, that is if this growing information base is allowed to stay for folks to add to.
 * The Lover's mark stashes article proves that we are not mere plagiarists resiting what's already been written. We are making this Wiki even more comprehensive than the strategy guide itself.

I will revisit an earlier save point in Dead Money. To better quote these references. Where they were stated & by whom.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 07:58, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

OK I was was about to PS
To answer the first question that was asked, how many are there ? ~ I am still searching for all the marks so I don't yet know how many there might be. So far I can say at least one marks more than just food or chems. A "Lover's Mark" is found on the Puesta del Sol switching station's power control box. " I am working on it. If you have any advice to help improve the article I am more than open to well intended advice from anyone. So please do feel free to visit my talk or even edit the article it'self. That is what we are all here for after all, to support this Wiki and provide the most complete information possible right ? So there it is, the best answer I have for your question at the moment. " I'm working on it " and you are more than welcome to help if you would care to. Thanks.

I also add, as I am researching these marks I may find even more than just trivia, whole articles are written on items that never even made it into any games. These locations are part of the game and some are challenging to locate as they are on ledges and hidden in the poison gas. I am sure I am not alone in my desire to get everything out of the game I possibly can. I paid good money for the DLC and these marks are part of the Dead Money world. Locating them all is more than trivia it is a quest to discover yet another mystery and a challenge to reach them all. It is my opinion that these marked locations hold every bit as much merit as Dean's suit cases.

P.P.S. If anyone feels I have been disrespectful in any way, all I can say is, that was not my intention. Ghost you have been a great help to me in the past, so to disrespect you now would just not be in my nature. We disagree is all.


 * So finally who makes the decisions ? So far you, are the only one speaking against it. Even if it is just trivia to you, some of us feel it is more than just information, to us it is resources that can be used and it is a challenge to be searched for. Why is more information about the world we paid to play a bad thing ? It's not like there is no room.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 04:20, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I never asked how many there are, it could be 5 or 5000. It makes no difference to me, I am trying to determine the purpose of the actual page. With Deans secret stashes I can see a purpose, because it is an actual challenge that is part of the game, but this isn't. If this is to stay then by all rights we should list all the stashes of hollowed out rocks that also have the 'love marks' throughout the Mojave, then all the other loot that has something similar about them. And as part of the content policy I am failing to see how it conforms to the following part All content needs to be informative. Information which is only of interest to the writer or to other editors (as opposed to readers) should not be included in articles. To me these locations have no notoriety that is deserving of a page dedicated towards them. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 19:55, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

The question was asked by SA3, it was the first post of this discussion but to your point I again disagree, the location of each hollowed rock should be listed. Further it is my opinion perhaps but this Wiki is used by the readers, the gamers to enhance their game experience. Those who created or wrote the game content, they, and what they have to say now, that is Trivia. This Wiki serves the players, those who created the game and what they think is far less important "IMO". Daily we have been adding content to the Lover's mark stashes page and it sounds to me that most of us would like that trend to continue.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 04:47, July 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * If that is what you feel this wiki is, then you are greatly mistaken. This is not a game guide, nor is what the devs say trivia. What is trivia is own invention and also against the Vaults contents policy. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 20:19, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

@ Ghost Avatar: I'm just a reader and I found this extremely valuable in my most recent playthrough of Dead Money and I am telling absolutely everyone I can to check it out. This page is very valuable to people who want to get through this add-on without running out of food every five minutes. And it isn't the same as every bit of graffiti because it marks something valuable, like the graffiti on hollowed out rocks. This page is worth more than you're giving it credit. @ Saint Pain: Thank you so much for making this it is extremely helpful to low level players that want holorifles. -The Polar Bear lives 05:02, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

Redirect to Dean's secret stash?
What do you all think of redirecting it to Dean's secret stash, giving it a section there? That page is similar (a stash and a print on the wall), significant enough and has links to it. I don't think these lover's marks should go to waste. Jspoel 17:08, July 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Deans secret stash is a challenge, adding it there would be confusing. The better page would be as a foot note in Fallout: New Vegas containers and storage. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 19:45, July 27, 2011 (UTC)

World object page
Isn't there a page for static in-game world objects? You know, like riding floor cleaners and the like. This seems like it would be a candidate for inclusion on that page, unless it marked something unique. It could also be a subsection on a page detailing different in-game Fallout3/New Vegas graffiti, if there was such a page. --Xclockwatcher 21:08, July 31, 2011 (UTC)

==Far more than just trivial pursuits==

We become legacy, our mark on the Fallout world is proof for Canon.

These unmarked locations are hinted at in game and yet unnoted in the guides. We the players, We the dedicated editors have found this hidden knowledge. To shuffle this off as less than meritorious and worthy of it's own page is to disrespect all who volunteer their time and efforts here at this Vault Wiki.

This page, Lover's mark stashes, is but one example of what else we might share with the Fallout universe fans.

I fight for more than the right to argue. I argue for our Mark on game history.. We found what was not known and these marks locations are a service to the player.


 * That nomination for deletion has been respectfully noted and discussed. The editors have voiced again and again that the Lover's mark stashes are of value. The page should stand as a full page on it's own.. With proper notations as a work in progress that can be improved.

Respectfully : SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 23:38, August 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yet you fail to provide any evidence that it is actually hinted at, even after being requested to (simply saying so isn't good enough and essentially speculation). Secondly own invention is not canon, if that is what you truly think then you are greatly mistaken. We do not make canon here at the Vault. So as such, if you cant provide proof of the importance of these marks, I will soon be moving the content of this page to a general page to cover ALL stashes in Dead Money and delete this page, since as you say yourself "deletion has been respectfully noted and discussed" and the only argument put forwards is for the importance of the actual items and not the marks themselves. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 23:51, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Too tired to work so hard for nothing.. We agree.. You are a mod so the math plays out like that.

"I tried to help the gamers" It is as fitting an epitaph as any. No hard feelings, I am sure you think you are helping ... So let it be done & done. I will be well rid of the topic.. I wasted far too much time for no use of the powers that be.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 00:21, August 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Saint Pain put a lot of work in it, to make something of this page, Avatar. And he deserves credit for it. Hereby done by me anyway. I hope you redirect it to somewhere where the images can still be seen. JspoelJspoel Vault Boy.png 01:37, August 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * So if there is no hope to save this as it's own page, then where will it's valuable assets be listed for gamers to access ?

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 15:05, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

Removal of deletion tag
From my review of things here and the long going argument, we need to do something with this information. We need to figure out a category for this and go from there. Ghost is correct, we need this page to not be an orphan page. So there needs to be something done. As for Saint Pain, I understand your concern in wanting to maintain this page but we need to have this page linking to something. No one is going to come here and type Lover's mark into the search bar because these really aren't know as that. Not in-game anyways. Your quotes "I fight for more than the right to argue. I argue for our Mark on game history.. We found what was not known and these marks locations are a service to the player." and "I tried to help the gamers" seem to show that you have this odd found idea that us admins have never played the game or are not gamers. The very fact that we do what we do is for "the gamers" and that's why we are here. You have to understand that I personally have never looked for this page. The very fact that a majority of these are similar to those marks marking hallowed-out rocks should mean we should merge this page with that page or somehow combine them. The heart image is not unique to the DLC and that should be noted. In a wiki, there are things that just are not done. One of them is to create an orphaned page. This is one such page.--Kingclyde 06:57, August 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have been racking my brain as where to put this information and I think you have just hit it on the head. These are essentially the Dead Money equivalent of hollowed-out rocks (in all but the actual rock itself), as such I think it would be best placed on that page with its own section explaining as such and then listing the detail of the locations etc. This will also give this content of this page greater exposure. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 21:17, August 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Makes sense to me. --Kingclyde 21:54, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

I was allways more about keeping the information, so even though it was never up to me either way, I say go ahead & do what y'all think is best. I'm just glad the locations details will not be lost.

SaintPain → That was broke a'fore I got here! 23:36, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

Notable Loot?
I think the information would be of more use to the player if it were dispersed to the related Sierra Madre location pages in the Notable Loot sections.

For example, if you're in Puesta del Sol and searching for loot, that's the page you go to, not here.

I can see SaintPain's idea, but finding these marks is a self-imposed challenge not included in the game (unlike Dean's stashes) with no reward, or even indication that it exists to the casual gamer.

The information is useful, but no more so than the locations of the "I'm so sorry you're here" graffito loot, or Madre casino chips. Putting it on the relevant location page would seem to make the most sense.

All the best, --FourWayDiablo 13:46, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

Crazy idea
Why not just let it be ?
 * Most comments say these marks have merit. Why rack our brains & cause divisions..

This ain't the US house of, so called, State Representatives or Congress. No body get's paid to be here & argue.


 * What dose it hurt to save our self more labor? If the mod tags could be removed & we all just got back to looking for reasons to unite & have fun, this would be a better place to waist our time.

No is just to easy an answer ? Again I respectfully, I put forth the Crazy Idea : Let it be ~ Please ?

SaintPain → ''LIVE from the Valley O Death" 09:18, August 30, 2011 (UTC)