Forum:Gas/Diesel Generators in the Wasteland?

Hey guys newbie to the fallout forum here. I wanted to get ya'lls opinions on the gas/diesel generators that seem to show up regularly in the wasteland, especially in areas populated by factions like the NCR and the Brotherhood. I find myself fascinated by them because no one ever really talks maintaining them, fueling them, or where they even found them. Their just there to pump out electricity to say camp forlorn hope.

As far as I can tell they seem to be gas/diesel generators (they can be heard running) which usually have simple engines that are easy enough to maintain as long as you do regular maintenance and you have the parts to fix them when they break. But I suspect that finding one in functional condition wouldn't be so commonplace after 200 years and a nuclear war. Having one would be a HUGE status symbol.

There also seems to be the unanswered question of fuel supply? Where the hell does it come from? All the oil has been used up and making oil from coal(if it hasn't already been used up) would probably be too cost prohibitive for any wastelander or faction government. While these generators could use natural gas they lack the storage capacity for natural gas.

My assumption is that they are either powered by ethanol or bio-diesel but, either way it puts the fuel cost probably somewhere around $9.25 a gallon and that's in our world where we don't face many of the handicaps of the fallout world. I don't know how to put a price tag on that fuel in the fallout world or how to translate that $9.25 price-tag into fallout currency (like caps) but something tells me that every gallon these generators burn is probably the equivalent to some waselander's monthly earnings.

My guess is that the maintenance and fuel supply of these things would be critical to the factions that possess them. And they would inspire a whole lot of contempt and jealously in a world where most wastelanders experience hunger on a regular basis. Imagine your emotional response if you were a wastelander just trying to scrape by in the mojave and here comes the NCR announcing "WE'RE RICH AS FUCK!" by burning perfectly good food as fuel to keep the lights on.

--Boredintheusa 08:16, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

I agree you're probably looking at Biodiesel or Ethanol; and it would only be wealthier individuals or groups that have access to it. The NCR could forseeably have factories producing spare parts, or even new generators. Agent c 13:25, June 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * A good post. Don't try to translate our gas prices into the Fallout reality, since prices in the modern world are determined by complex economical and political factors of which availability and production costs are a neglibile part. Diesel engines can burn any oil if they have the proper filters installed, so the owners of them can simply use whatever oil available.
 * Don't forget that over two centuries have passed since the war, the Fallout world is no longer a lawless wasteland and new human civilizations have developed, the NCR isn't rich as fuck nor burning food - they can simply afford to convert a portion of their industrial production into creating various types of oil for their fuel generators. Most wastelanders don't really need electricity in amounts necesitating the installation of a separate generator - most can get by with using fission batteries or other rechargeable ones (eg. Mojave outpost lights, the lighting in Goodsprings etc.), wind generators or even simple burners (eg. Scrapheap, which had a generator powered by burning brahmin dung).
 * Besides, listen to the people of the Mojave. They aren't scraping by, they have all the basic needs covered and are concerned not with the lack of them, but rather quality or the presence of NCR troops stamping their foothold into the desert. Even before NCR's arrival, they had stable lives and definitely weren't scraping by. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 14:29, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Right. I agree there's no way to translate today's gas prices or currency into the fallout reality, but again I suspect that fueling these things per-gallon is still exorbitantly expensive. The fallout world faces many ecological handicaps that we don't(yet)which not only includes a hotter climate but also an environment extensively polluted by radiation and industrial waste. It's definitely a lot harder to grow annual crops in a hotter climate and an environment whose ecology has been severely diminished by pollution (though the mojave seems mostly intact).

It's interesting that you bring up the NCR's industrial capacity which the game has hinted at (one NCR woman mentions sawmills) but how extensive that capacity is anyone's guess. Sure almost any oil can be converted into something that can be used in a diesel engine, you can even make biodiesel out of fish oil. But that's the problem you still need to find the oil, in the ancient world oils were a valuable commodity because of their utility for many different purposes. Greece at one time was the saudi arabia of their day, because they had generous supplies of olive oil to export. My guess is that any oil that is made in the fallout world will have to come from a biological source.

The oil could come from many sources, it could come from say palm trees, it could come from Brahman (I'm sure the Brahman barons would love to have the NCR Gov. as a buyer for brahman fat) it could come from corn or soybeans (mirelurk oil anyone?). But in most cases bio-diesel or ethanol would be competing with food prices. If not it's still a valuable commodity, so you would have to have deep pockets to use it as a fuel. The NCR could use a wood-gas convertor to turn wastewood and sawdust into syngas which could then be converted into synpetroleum. You would need the equipment for both, and you would definitely lose some energy converting syngas into synoil.

I agree most wastelanders probably have the basics met, but I have a suspicion that there are many people across the wasteland who still face food insecurity, Freeside comes to mind. Thanks for mentioning scrap heap I figured that waste methane could be a very useful technology in the wasteland!

--Boredintheusa 18:52, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * The environment isn't excessively polluted, not anymore. Most of the radiation faded away, thanks to half-life (radioactive particles became inert, quite simply), while there was no heavy industry active for two centuries, meaning there was no industrial waste polluting the environment. While it is true that landfills and other waste storage centers still persist, a majority of the wasteland will have recuperated by then and regenerated to the point where industrial devastation and radiation isn't a problem, but rather basic concerns, such as water, fertilizers and seeds. It isn't really a more arid climate either, as exemplified by Zion or Point Lookout, the problem is that nuclear fire sterilized large areas of the country and upset the ecosystem, which coupled with radiation-induced mutation has caused severe setbacks in agriculture, as survivors had to re-learn the trade. Look at Shady Sands, Junktown or the Hub in the original Fallout - these settlements include stable agriculture and annual harvests, showing that it is certainly possible to farm in the changed environment, but it simply needs a bit more effort.
 * Next point - NCR industrial capacity. The NCR is fully capable of mass producing standardized uniforms and armour, weapons, ammunition, meaning they have proper automated industrial plants. They operate Pre-War machinery such as the digger in quarry junction and have a functioning railway network. To cap it all off, they are capable of restoring Pre-War technology and keeping it running. This indicates that not only do they have an industrial capacity, but that it is unparalleled (except for the Legion), that they have access to raw materials such as oil, steel, coal etc. in abundance. You don't seem convinced, but I wager that's because you forget the scale - the NCR has 700,000 citizens in total, that's the entire southern part of the Core Region. That's barely 20% of the population of current-day Los Angeles. They aren't supplying a country of milions, barely a nation of a few hundred thousand. They need a lot less and accordingly, Pre-War stocks of raw oil that might've been a neglible drop in the ocean before 2077, suddenly become a lasting supply in 2281 when they are rediscovered.
 * This connects to the next point, as you mention several sources of oil, answering your own question. The NCR has relatively small power needs in the field, so automatically, a lot less fuel is required to keep their machines running, meaning that even small scale oil production will go a long way towards meeting them. As such, propably all of these methods are used and since they're small scale, they wouldn't really impact the prices of food. The Boomers maintain a supply of food and a biodiesel refinery and they're just a small, isolationist community in the middle of nowhere. The NCR is far bigger and far more powerful.
 * And yes, impoverished people exist in the wasteland, I was just pointing out that since the war the average wastelander quality of life has improved significantly. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 19:22, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * The Gas coming from Brahmin dung is very valuable... Its a key part of Jet. Agent c 19:06, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

No climate change? I read on the wiki that the world descended into a brutal nuclear summer after the bombs were dropped. It seemed pretty plausible to me given the the state of the capital wasteland which seems to have desertified a great deal when compared to the modern DC area. Industrial pollution still seems to be a problem given the state of the pitt and the sierra madre and nuclear waste can be all over the mojave wasteland. As intact as the mojave seems to be it seems hard to imagine it has no effect.

From what I remember there was only one source of oil left, sure there could be oil refineries and the like that is still loaded with the stuff, but if the NCR has extensive industrial capacity then that might end up being a lot less oil than it seems. It takes a lot of energy to run factories and mine the ground and there's a lot of stuff that oil can do that biofuels wont. To me it doesn't seem plausible that the NCR would waste any fossil fuel that they have even supporting the troops in the field. It's really too precious to be putting it in a generator in the middle of nowhere, no matter how much they have. The NCR knows that they won't be able to get any more petroleum even if that drop in the bucket has turned into a huge reservoir. After it's gone the best they can do is create it synthetically which takes a good bit of energy and some chemical inputs, not a cheap process.

Also, I didn't know that the NCR has working trains in NCR territory and a working railroad? I thought the powder-gangers never finished it? The boomers have also been storing that fuel for a long time and for one purpose only, none of it is being actively used and who knows how long they've been stockpiling it. Any biofuel that is produced in the NCR would definitely have great demand put on by government,business, and ordinary people. Towns would want it for generators and streetlights, many people would want/need it for heating their homes during the winter, use in lanterns and as cooking oil,business would need it for industry and the army would need it for tons of stuff.

All's I'm saying is this wouldn't necessarily be cheap stuff, even though there's only 700,000 people in a big land they still need water, good soil, and labor to grow it which means you could be displacing resources for food production (though i've never heard anything about famine in the NCR). I guess my question is if this stuff is so common that NCR people don't think twice when putting it in their bitter springs generator, where are the NCR trucks delivering supplies to forlorn hope or camp McCarran? Mobility is a huge advantage in warfare, if the NCR had the ability to deliver their troops anywhere they need to be in the mojave in a few hours why wouldn't they? If there is a large supply the NCR might try putting it in old planes and helicopters and use it to attack legion camps from the air.They could put their rangers on old motorcycles at the very least.

--Boredintheusa 21:05, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * The powdergangers you meet are on the outskirts of the NCR - we havent seen the core of the NCR (Also be careful not to start your paragraphs with a space - Otherwise it makes your comments almost unreadable until they're removed). Agent c 21:21, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

The bit about climate change is used very inconsistently. While large parts of the Core Region in Fallout 1 and 2 are deserts (in stark contrast with the present day state of affairs), Zion and Point Lookout show that the climate change wasn't severe enough to turn the world into one big desert. Given that by 2241 in the Core Region trees are a plenty, whereas in Fallout 1 there were very few alive, it's a reasonable assumption that the environment is recovering and regenerating gradually. Industrial waste isn't a problem, as, again, the Pitt and various nuclear waste dumps are localized phenomena not relevant in the long run. They don't have a global influence - a toxic waste dump might be nasty, but it doesn't really affect the ecosystem on a larger scale. Golden geckos even like those places.

Next, again, the scale. There wasn't a single source of oil left, since that's impossible. America and China have simply tapped into most of easily accessible oil fields and rather than develop methods to excavate those that aren't that easy to access, they tried to claw each other's eyes out. Same is true for the resource wars in Europe. The NCR isn't large by our standards - 700,000 ciizens means it's slightly larger than my home city of Poznan. It's a relatively small population with an industrial capacity that meets the needs of its citizens and army. We aren't talking about our factories that are designed to produce goods for milions of people across the world, we're talking about small factories, workshops, a production that's relatively small scale in comparison to our world. The NCR can afford producing synthetic oil on top of that, because it's small scale.

And you're right, they aren't going to use Pre-War oil to fuel their generators. They will use cheap replacements made using power derived from whatever energy sources they have - wind power, burning brahmin dung, even human power. Human creativity knows no bounds and as Hildern explains, the OSI was created to put scientific knowledge to practical use and solving problems. Yes, fuel is a commodity and it isn't cheap, but the NCR has enough of it to spare, otherwise, they wouldn't be in the Mojave as they'd be suffering from an energy crisis. In fact, it's entirely plausible that the prevalence of diesel generators in the Mojave partially stems from the fact that Hoover is now online and sending power to the core NCR cities, giving the Republic essentially free power and freeing up fuel that'd otherwise be spent generating electricity.

Next, oil isn't used for vehicles. They'd burn far too much of it anyway, it's been repeatedly stated that Fallout vehicles are powered through fission (Fallout 3) or rechargeable on-board batteries (Fallout 2). Power isn't generally the problem - it's the spare parts. A truck, a car or a motorcycle is a very complex machine and after two centuries there wouldn't be many spare parts left and the knowledge to fashion new ones would be lost. Working vehicles aren't unheard of (eg. the 188 military truck or the trucks in McCarran courtyard), but they are rare and wouldn't be used for any kind of combat duty due to their rarity and value. You can forget about aircraft - apart from fuel consumption, there just wouldn't be enough qualified people around to fly them (IF you can get them to work) and when they are available, you wouldn't risk losing them on a combat mission. That's why you only see an NCR vertibird once in New Vegas.

Last, Rangers are silent death. A noisy motorcycle wouldn't be much use in their line of work. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 22:25, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah it's generally an accepted fact that we won't consume all of the oil, just the oil sources that are technologically/economically recoverable. I figured if the prewar governments and oil companies couldn't find a way to suck more of it out of the ground, the new post-war societies wouldn't be able find a way to do it either.

Thanks for putting the scale of the NCR into perspective, in the game they seem so huge and powerful, but by our standards their really small. I still think the industrialization question is interesting, they seem to be able to mass produce many new uniforms which is definitely possible if they a sizable amount of hemp,cotton, or wool and they'd only need a few sweatshop type factories to clothe their soldiers. The biggest question to address is how they produce their weapons, the gun-runners are like the NCR's military-industrial complex and seem to be able to make many kinds of guns in their workshops. I wonder if the NCR just discovered a f*ck-ton of old service rifles and decided to start making spare parts for them or if the NCR decided the design was simple enough and decided to manufacture them. Even if it's small scale it's quite an achievement, they'd need quite a bit of scaved equipment for manufacturing, a way to mine or recycle metals and a nice energy supply. I think we've established that all of that is possible and thatthe NCR is clever enough to find substitutes for fossil fuels in factory processes(It also helps their making small quantities of stuff).

Were oil-powered vehicles phased out? I thought there would still be some lying around. I like that you brought up that truck at 188 and McCarran I weren't sure if they actually functional/belonged to anyone.

--Boredintheusa 23:44, June 4, 2011 (UTC)

I dont think they were foricbly phased out like the change to digital television, but I think their replacement was just something that the free market did - Oil became crazily priced, Electric conversion kits slowly became in the reach of more and more people. Agent c 23:07, June 5, 2011 (UTC)

I could see that. Plus in the fallout world people use nuclear power for EVERYTHING, so I could see people electrifying their old cars and then say using fission batteries to power them. --Boredintheusa 09:01, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

It's laughable how easy it would be to get an engine to run in the wasteland. Gasoline engines can readily be converted to run on alcohol, which isn't in short supply, and diesel engines can run on just about fucking anything. Like, say, for example, plant oils, which again could be produced in the wasteland. Lubrication can be done by those same plant oils(Hey, it works just fine in RC engines, look up Castor oil), though the engine may wear more than intended or smoke. Still...I see absolutely no reason you couldn't have an internal combustion engine to run in the wasteland provided you found one that was still serviceable. On top of that, with some clever programming, it's feasible one could fool the Sierra Madre vending machines into feeding you brand new gasoline/diesel/motor oil. All you'd need is the right programming skills to tell them how to assemble it and enough raw feedstock for them to do their thing. They produce their goods by literally breaking down the chips into raw atoms and reassembling them on a molecular basis so there's no reason you couldn't get gasoline out of one. I&#39;m the best at space!

Some really good points. Anyone could make fuel if they have enough alcohol/plant matter (the game offers plenty of examples like the boomers or homebrew flamer fuel), but remember it does take a fair amount of plant matter to make a gallon of fuel and it's anyone's guess whether internal combustion engines in the fallout world ever advanced beyond the efficiency standards (or lack thereof)of the 1950s. Whatever oils people produce are still a valuable commodity (just as they were in the ancient world) not only are people going to use them in their homes but people will be very tempted to trade their surplus oil with the next town over for say fusion batteries or maybe a few pack Brahman. Even if it's a cheap commodity, the side-effect of people burning them in fixed up cars and generators might be that supply gets tight and price goes up.The NCR's land is pretty huge and the population is pretty small, so it seems like the biggest limit on bio-fuel production in the immediate future is access to clean water, which which is half of why their in Nevada. The sierra madre could definitely produce enough genuine gasoline/diesel as long as you have enough chips/materials to counterfeit chips with, but it's not a very hospitable place with all the poison air, ghost people and holograms.

--Boredintheusa 20:09, June 6, 2011 (UTC)