Forum:Tabitha gender -- What's our approach?

Further discussion for my own understanding, please
From our own Super mutant article: "While the super mutants originating from Mariposa are sterile, they do not lose their sexual organs or secondary sexual characterics of their original gender. In contrast, the Vault 87 strain of FEV causes the subjects to lose most of their visible secondary sexual characteristics."
 * What secondary sexual characteristics are lost? Genitalia is not viewable in the game. Other than what may or may not be down there, the super mutants are just males: male bodies, male voices.

From me, posting on Nitty's talk page: "In my opinion, the genderless super mutant thing isn't well-thought out in the Fallout universe. It comes across more as writer's cover-up for larger design issues. Mutants are given male voicing and male body models (we don't see genitalia, but in all other respects, male), and the designers don't want to mess with the ramifications of having male and female super mutants in the game. It's too much explanation and details to worry about, and it's all to one side of what the game designers are really interested in anyway. So, the writers slap on a half-baked idea to cover up. However, nobody stops the writers from later making jokes that, if taken at all seriously, raise gender questions no one really wants to answer. See the mutant couple arguing over the porn mag in Broken Hills, for example. It remains to be seen whether Sawyer and his crew will tease out the questions Tabitha raises into any interesting lore or just leave it as a largely unexplained humorous episode.

Questions

 * Apart from the joke mutant couple in Broken Hills, when/where do we see female characteristics on Mariposa super mutants?
 * When/where is the info about Mariposa mutants not losing gender while Vault 87 mutants do - where is the info found?

thanks, --Gothemasticator 05:21, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's simple: FEV-II super mutants lose their secondary gender characteristics (such as breasts feminine curves, female-type hair, lips, etc.) and have a generic supermutant body shape common for both genders. By far the only difference would be the genitalia, as I believe FEV-II won't magically make a penis sprout on a female. The couple in Broken Hills isn't just a joke - it's a canon example of how gender plays out in supermutants.
 * We have at least two confirmations that male supermutants retain the use of their penises and can achieve orgasm - Francis, who may rape you if you lose an arm wrestling contest, regardless of your gender, and Marcus, who can visit Cat's Paw and makes a remark "I hope I didn't make her pregnant", indicating that his reproductive organ is not only ale to achieve erection, but also ejaculate without much hassle. Same goes for the feuding couple, where the wife accusses the husband of masturbating to porn mags. And there's the supermutant/human female couple in the Mariposa Military Base in Fallout 1, where if you kill the supermutant, the female will accuse you of being a murderer.
 * An interesting point comes up when checking the COMBATAI.MSG (Fallout) file:
 * {2352}{}{I do not share that weakness with you, human!}
 * {2353}{}{My loins are stronger than yours, human!}
 * Since Fallout 2 proves that supermutants retain their penises, this means that the supermutant penis is made of sterner stuff than regular homo sapiens penis, strong enough to withstand hits from firearms without knocking out the owner... most of the time, that is.
 * Now, on to examine the husband/wife (HCHUSWIF.MSG):
 * {107}{}{Where's my Cat's Paw? You threw it out again, didn't you?}
 * {143}{}{What do you need that filth for when you've got me right here?!}
 * We've estabilished that male supermutants can have intercourse because they retain their penises. This quote here proves that female mutants retain their vaginas and the ability to have intercourse (I have to assume they can achieve orgasm too). Otherwise, there'd be not much point to her saying "You've got me right here".
 * I think that's all from me. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 08:20, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

In response, I would argue...

 * The "generic supermutant body shape" is clearly male, in all versions from all games, including concept art. Skull and jaw shape, shoulder:hip size, enlarged chest - all male secondary sex characteristics. I'm unaware of any in-game or concept art that doesn't depict male-looking super mutants. I'm also unaware of any in-game text that would supply additional information.
 * Jokes: The Broken Hills couple, Francis and Marcus - all of their sex- and gender-related comments and events are played primarily for laughs.
 * Broken Hills couple: Their banter does not necessitate believing that they have functioning genitalia. It can be viewed as a one-off humorous episode with no consequence to lore - or it can be viewed as a tragicomic playing out of gender roles in a situation in which there is no sex.
 * Francis: The ball gag and being his gimp for the night are a cultural reference, so there's no call to take it too seriously as regards lore. But, if we want to pick, I don't believe there is anything in the text that clearly indicates that there was actual functual sex rather than, say, sexless sadomasochistic acts.
 * Marcus: We've already said that Marcus' comment about not being sterile was a joke; why would we take his comment at the Cat's Paw any more seriously? He could just as easily be believed to be putting on a macho act, when, in fact, nothing sexual happened.
 * Fallout mutant/human couple - This one is not played for laughs. But, there is nothing to indicate any sexual function on the part of the super mutant. All that is there is the emotional relationship - quite possibly one-sided.
 * Strong loins - This can reasonably be read as evidence that super mutants no longer have functioning (and therefore tender) genitalia.

I would favor changing the language in the super mutant article to be less scientifically certain. I would say something like, "Mariposa super mutants are sterile. Both male and female subjects end up after transformation appearing indistinguishable from one another. It is not known whether any physical gender-related evidence remains post-mutation, but some super mutants continue to exhibit gender-specific behaviors." I would also favor adopting a clear policy about refering to individual super mutants as male or female based on their own gender-identification as evidenced by their behavior. --Gothemasticator 15:33, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ugh. The game has CLEAR EXAMPLES of gender differentation between supermutants. It is not your role to define canon, your role is to gather the available facts, analyze them and create a synthetic summary for the wiki. And the facts are:
 * Female supermutants are not distinguishable from male supermutants based on exterior. Yes, they share a common body type, but that might be simply the side-effect of FEV-II, which could've been tailored for male humans (as they formed a majority of the armed forces in USA at the time).
 * You have no idea whether it was simply played for laughs or if it was setting exposition cleverly integrated into a comedic situation. So stop claiming you know the game developers' intent.
 * The couple clearly has sex, as is evidenced by one of their exchanges which includes the aforementioned Cat's Paw and the wife's annoyance at her husband's affinity towards pornographic magazines. If there was no sex involved, she'd not be annoyed - since the supermutants share a common body type, her statement makes no sense if it's not relating to their sexual life - she is clearly no competition for naked, busty female models. Their exchange is about their sex life - she can't comprehend how a male can prefer his palm instead of his wife's confines.
 * Given the nature of BDSM and its strong relation to sexual intercourse, you have to prove Francis' work wasn't sexual in nature.
 * You're desperately clutching at straws with Marcus. Fact is, you hook up Marcus with the girls (and it's not the Kesting special) and he makes a comment about getting women pregnant. To get women pregnant, a man needs to ejaculate into her womb and it's only logical to infer that Marcus did, in fact, have sexual intercourse ending in ejaculation. Occam's Razor 101: your theory is completely baseless and needlessly complicated.
 * The Mariposa love story wasn't a one-sided affair. They both talk about her dipping and they love each other. The phrasing of the woman's dialogue (she deliberately uses the term "lover", instead of saying "I loved him") indicates their relationship wasn't only about feelings.
 * Ugh, the term "loins" is an often used metaphor for male genitalia. It isn't meant to be read literally. "Fruit of my loins", anyone?
 * To change the articles, first prove your theory. As it stands, you're assuming Mariposa super mutants have no sexual organs based solely on their general appearance, to the contrary of actual in-game evidence. Also, Occam's Razor 101: if the game differentates between sexes, then it differentates between their actual genders. Adding baseless speculation that it may be self-identification is, well baseless. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 17:14, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't be so disgusted. I have honest questions. I present my thoughts reasonably. I ask about all this here instead of making wanton changes to the articles. And, I've never pretended to be an authority on lore. I've been happy in the past, and I remain happy now to be answered and proven wrong.
 * I do wonder why we take some things seriouosly when, for instance, Marcus' comment about sterility would have been indistinguishable were it not for a developer remark.
 * My concern is brought about most recently by Tabitha. It would be helpful to have a clear reason for refering to her by one gender or the other. Less recently, the same concern on my part was brought up by Fawkes specifically, and Vault 87 super mutants generally. We state that they have no gender, yet we defend strongly that Fawkes is male and not female. (I realize that the question of Fawkes mostly concerns the misinterpretation of terminal data, but insisting on his maleness seems to contradict what we state about Vault 87 super mutant gender.)
 * I also do not see it as "clutching at straws" to question how seriously we are to take certain events and dialogues in FO2, when the game is so rife with pop culture references and other jokes. I'm not claiming to know developer intent when I say something was "played for laughs." The remaining question is how to tell when it is only played for laughs.
 * Don't take my ignorance personally, Grizzly. Just help me out - patiently. Thanks.--Gothemasticator 20:07, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Mariposa mutants have genitalia, this is certain. They lose secondary sexual traits, such as breasts, though. If they didn't have genitalia, the Master would be an idiot and you wouldn't need to have high Science and holodisk with medical evidence to prove to him that they are sterile. And you can tell him to ask his female mutants. Moreover, as ZAX explains, their sterility is not caused by their sex organs not producing reproductive cells (such as eggs and sperms). They are produced, but since they are half-cells, FEV "fixes" them to have the full DNA, therefore making reproduction impossible. Ausir(talk) 20:20, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ausir, sometimes I forget what's propably the most obvious source of knowledge: ZAX and the Master. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:06, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, keep in mind that Tabitha being identified as transexual or "in drag" was based on an early preview. Tabitha might identify as female simple because she is biologically female, and the previewer might have simply gotten it wrong (as he assumed that all super mutants are male or assumed that she is by her looks). And even if she were biologically male, I would refer to her as a "she" just like I would with any female transexual. The more stupid mutants (as with most of the East Coast ones) probably don't have any gender self-identification at all, but the more intelligent ones do, regardless of their biological sex or lack of it. Ausir(talk) 21:42, May 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Ausir. I, too, just wasn't taking into account the Master or ZAX. And I am quite satisfied with how the Tabitha article is currently worded.--Gothemasticator 01:39, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also keep in mind the differentiation between gender and sex. Sex is only biological, while gender is also psychological/social. Ausir(talk) 01:44, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

And there I'd simply have said "Tabitha is a female name, so we should use female pronouns unless ingame usage shows otherwise" :P -- Porter21 (talk) 16:08, May 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Chris Avellone said in the Fallout Bible (I think in 0) that the comment in New Reno from Marcus was a joke and that he apologises. Krha 09:42, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

The joke is the pregnancy line, not that a super mutant can have intercourse. --User Avatar talk.png 13:45, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

Dev Info: Sawyer weighs in
An editor just posted this on the Tabitha talk page:
 * "Before being dipped in the vats, Tabitha was a female human. She continues to self-identify as female. Descriptions of her as being "in drag" are not accurate; FEV transforms female humans in the same way as male humans, leaving their appearance very similar."

The source link was broken, unfortunately. I've asked the contributor to supply the correct link, but does anybody else recognize where this quote comes from? Thanks.--Gothemasticator 17:43, May 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * J.E. Sawyer posted it on Bethesda's forums. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:51, May 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--Gothemasticator 17:56, May 24, 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I don't believe it matters what they physically are. Psychologically speaking, sex it between the legs while gender is between the ears. I refer to them however they identify themsleves. Tabitha cleary feels like a woman while Keene clearly feels like a man. --Grassrunnerdaugher 16:19, June 10, 2011 (UTC)