Forum:Suggestions of a Grammar Fascist

I've noticed that the grammar, syntax and general phrasing of a lot of the pages - particularly the newer ones - is wanting. I've been using this Wiki as a resource for some time, but I just recently started editing pages.

I think that some contributors could really benefit from internalizing a few simple, general principles of proper English writing:

'''* Content is most readable when written with as few words as possible. Try to minimize unnecessary "helper" words and conditional phrases - say what needs to be said literally, matter-of-factly.'''

INCORRECT: "Of course, this can be used in conjunction with TNT to cause an NPC to explode after a predetermined amount of time, via the timer you set."

CORRECT: "Reverse-pickpocketing TNT will cause an NPC to explode according to the timer."

'''* Only proper nouns should be capitalized. If a proper noun consists of more than one word, all words should be capitalized.'''

INCORRECT: "Old nuclear test site"

CORRECT: "Old Nuclear Test Site"

* Always describe actions in the the third person.

INCORRECT: "when you do this"

CORRECT: "when the player/the Lone Wanderer/Courier does this"

* Avoid parallel phrasing in successive sentences.

INCORRECT: "The gun has high damage. The gun is acquired from a quest. The gun cannot be modded."

CORRECT: "The gun has high damage. It is acquired from a quest, and cannot be modded."

* Do not anthropomorphize (attribute human qualities) to NPC behavior.

INCORRECT: "...even though they have no way to know you were responsible..."

CORRECT: "...will turn nearby NPCs hostile even if the player is not detected..."

* Do not describe the player as the object of an action if implied by context.

INCORRECT: "Source: Given to you by..."

CORRECT: "Source: Given by..."

* Do not begin a paragraph or bullet point with "it".

INCORRECT: "Notes: It can break shields."

CORRECT: "Notes: This item can break shields."

* Be aware of relative tenses and use them appropriately.

INCORRECT: "...it will be almost fully repaired when recalibrating it..."

CORRECT: "...after being recalibrated, it will be almost fully repaired..."

* Avoid infantile or setting-inappropriate terminology.

INCORECT: "...the enemies patrol..."

CORRECT: "...the NPCs patrol..."

It would be a big help if contributors could internalize this information, and guide other contributors who may need a bit of help here. Feel free to post on my Talk page if looking for a bit of guidance.

Aestune 05:07, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

==== These kinds of things are easily 85% of the edits I've made. Maybe more. Veazey21 05:09, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

We actually have a capitalization policy, for your info. Maybe check it out. BILLYOCEAN 05:18, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Please read the guidelines of the Vault before start a message like that. It's another proof than new people here doesn't read the guidelines and after complaining that their edits are deleted or they are banned. Also, the background have the same importance here than the gameplay.


 * "the enemies patrol" is better to reconcile the two and in general than "the NPCs patrol", for my opinion, not very nice. We speak more for character here, not NPC.


 * "It" are sometimes needed when many sentence are following. For the rest, more of your proposal or an alternative way was already written in the guidelines, it is very important to read it =): The Vault:Policies and guidelines. Itachou [~talk~] 11:10, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

The pronoun "it" has its place, but in general, chaining sentences beginning with "it" is considered bad style. It's better to refer to the subject in different ways - it makes the writing more engaging and readable. That applies in any setting.

It seems to me that "enemies" would be appropriate in a tactical or storyline context, but in the context of the behavior of computer-controlled opponents from a strict gameplay perspective, "...how the NPCs path...", "...after this is done, the NPCs will proceed..." "NPC" would be the correct term.

I see English isn't your native language, and you seem to have some difficulty with the grammar. I'd be more than happy to give you some advice/tips if you need - that might alleviate some of your concerns.

Also, I noticed something very interesting: Vault guidelines specify second- or third-person language, but Wikipedia specifies third-person only and specifically excludes use of second-person.

In any event, what prompted me to write this was the seeming abundance of content written not so much with ignorance of the guidelines as the general habits of English, and I was hoping to improve the understanding of contributors who might be having some difficulty. Aestune 11:58, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Roleplay? you're confusing two different things, it's not roleplay it's background. Gameplay only article are rare here, for exemple in a location (Raven Rock) or a weapon page (Assault rifle (Fallout 3)), we have generally a background section, after that the article is a background and gameplay article. "NPC" is used only in quest pages and walkthrough pages - full gameplay article.


 * To answer your notification (that you have removed it in your message but I re-put it - because things should not be hidden, it doesn't work like that here), yes I'm French and if you see things that can be easily fix, you can send me a message on my talk page, I will be pleased to get better in English even though the languages ​​are not my strong point =).


 * But also just a note (it is better to say), it's not because I don't write correctly in English that my view has no importance in this debate, I've been here longer than you, I'm an admin and I know how runs the Vault and how are things. Otherwise je peux écrire en français si vous voulez mais je me demande comment vous pourrez arriver à comprendre cela, mais bon ça vous donnera une nouvelle préoccupation d'essayer de comprendre cette simple phrase, n'êtes-vous pas d'accord ? Itachou [~talk~] 12:21, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely have the right to decide what I do and don't want to say. I removed my remark (and have done so again) because I decided it was ill-considered, and that's my right. You have no more right to restore my own words than I do to edit out what others say.

We're discussing English style and syntax, which are my areas of expertise, and your being admin or a long-time contributor on this Wiki has no bearing on what is a purely technical issue.

Also, this is an English-language Wiki as specified in the guidelines. Your being admin doesn't change that and your question as to "how I will understand" is irrelevant. The Wiki is English-language for a reason.

Finally, according to Wikipedia guidelines as well as Vault guidelines, bans can only be issued by uninvolved admis so you do not have the authority to ban me for disagreeing with you in this context. 12:30, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * No, after you have write something in a community space he should be kept. Do you really think you can write something disparaging, insulting etc. and then after removing it like nothing had happened, not in a talk page but especially on a forum? And especially on someone (me in this case).


 * Any community and any wiki don't work all with the same rules. For exemple here, we doesn't follow several writing style of Wikipedia. We have a way of doing that you may not be the idea. I was not against your opinion of NPC but only on fully gameplay pages.


 * You are wrong, the opinion of someone who was here a long time (especially an admin) is primordial compared to someone new and just arrived here. Itachou [~talk~] 12:43, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I changed that comment almost immediately after typing it and before any responses were made.

According to Vault guidelines, bans can only be issued by uninvolved admis so you do not have the authority to ban me for disagreeing with you in this context.

Vault Talk guidelines also explicitly say "do not edit other people's comments". I don't want that comment there because I thought better of it. Per guidelines, please don't edit my forum posts.

I said what I did in good faith so don't assume an insult where none was intended. Disparaging me as "primordial" is not appropriate.

Anyway this is getting a tad heated so I think we should all just move on. No harm intended. Aestune 12:47, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * A lot of other admins will read this and not be one bit pleased with your assault on Itachou so I'd be more careful of my tone. Many of these things are covered in the editing guidelines. Also, the discussion of this remark (which can be found in the history) will make people more curious as to what you said, thus the opinion that one will form regarding it will be of a stronger disposition for or against said remark. As Itachou said we focus more on background that gameplay (we have various sister wikis for that purpose) and it is more friendly for people to read longer explanations than cut-throat, to-the-point ones as you have given examples of. Also, you may wish to review the irony of your first paragraph of response. I don't mean to be rude, but we are not Wikipedia and so although I agree that in some instances third-person may be better (you forgot 'one' by the way), we do not what this to be a cold encyclopaedic sitr like Wikipedia. Thank you for your time. TheGuardianCalligraphy.pngGuardianoftheWastesTag.png 13:03, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * It does seem that way, doesn't it? I'm sure the edits you make will be valued, and they will be kept or not on an individual basis, so there is no need for this. If people disagree with one of your edits then I'm sure they will have the decency to tell you, but I implore you now not to try to make this a 'cold' site. Thanks again, TheGuardianCalligraphy.pngGuardianoftheWastesTag.png 13:09, August 12, 2011 (UTC).

It wasn't intended as an "assault" which is why I removed it; I thought better of the remark for fear it would be misinterpreted. Assume good faith please. Aestune 13:13, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just a notice, but in real life and in court, this kind of "remark" can be used against you even if you did say that once, you remove it or it's lost forever. I used it for shows your behavior tend to become aggressive during a normal debate (then you just arrived here) and your derogatory remark toward me (not just me, but anyone in the community could have been in my place). You just have lost the first impression here (in addition, not in your favor, to have the rudeness to creating a topic without having even read the policies and guidelines used here). Last notice, bad behavior against any user is enough to be banned. Itachou [~talk~] 13:34, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Not impressed by banhammer waving on the forum of a wiki for a computer game. Sorry you were offended. Moving on. Aestune 13:39, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just butting in here, but where else might he actually wave a banhammer? It's not like they're in use in the real world =P. Hugs Scar: "Say 'ello to my little friend!" 13:45, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

I personally think that you have not understood what is a community and therefore you have nothing to do here, in my opinion (in addition to not having understood the sense of your behavior). Sorry but like you said you are on "a forum of a wiki for a computer game", so yes you have to follow rules used here like everyone else. Just having the same behavior on the Vault that the real life and everything will be fine =). Itachou [~talk~] 14:06, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

You were the one who broke the rules by posting in non-English, editing another contributor's forum posts, and threatening to ban a contributor for a dispute in which you were directly involved. Invoking parallels to "IRL" implies the realities of life aren't sufficiently apparent. Aestune 14:33, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think you lock yourself in something you can not get out. I know the kind of person you are, it is useless to debate with you. Here the reasons are against you:


 * 1: You have the rudeness to creating a topic without having even read the policies and guidelines, the rules used here
 * 2: You disrespect someone (especially an admin), in addition to be new here
 * 3: You remove a disrespect message to hide your bad actions


 * All this is enough to ban you but I don't like ban people, and it's even you that re-start the discussion about that each time. The discussion about that is closed, you have lost all credibility here and it's not my fault. Have a nice day. Itachou [~talk~] 14:50, August 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * You have lost all creditability with me on this subject (and your ability to edit), right from the get go. Firstly, you come here and start pushing Wikipedia manual of style. This site isn't Wikipedia, we have our own way of running things around here. So get used to it before you start trying to push thing like this around, acting the same as what you have titled this page. Secondly, your attitude of "I'm right and you're wrong", generally sticks and will win you no favours. Looking at your recent edits also, they are poor and speculative. Namely this sentence added to the holorifle page, "The holorifle appears to be a grenade launcher...". It is one thing to say it looks similar, but to say that it appears to be, implies that it actually is when there is no hard evidence. Additionally, you start picking a fight with a valued editor and admin, kinda reminds me of User:Lugiatm. Something which doesn't bode well for you.


 * So I would suggest that you should take a step back and actually think through what you are doing. Sit back and get used to this site and the people who also contribute here, before you start trying throw your weight around.


 * Finally, I am going to give you a single warning, for your ad hominem comment towards Itachou. Drop the subject of that matter. Seems Crazy sam has already taken action. User avatar tag.gif Avatar talk.png 16:57, August 12, 2011 (UTC)