Talk:Small Guns

Effect of increasing Small Guns
What does increasing this... do? Increased accuracy in vats, more damage, or what? 01:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm nearly certain that increasing Small Guns increases the damage of non-Big Guns gunpowder-based weapons (most pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, precision rifles, and shotguns). There's a bit in the Fallout 3 general tips page that suggests that increasing Small Guns also increases your accuracy OUTSIDE of VATS.  I'm not sure that's true, and it may also increase VATS accuracy.  However, my guess is that VATS accuracy is mostly improved with Perks.  I'm hopefully it increases your accuracy outside of VATS, but as I said I'm not sure that's true, or how to know for sure without looking at the code.  Servius 14:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Has anyone figured out the specific, incrimental effects? For example, what is the damage modifier applied between 45 and 50 (for 45 and 46)?  Is there, in fact, any effect on accuracy in or out of VATS?  I just started a new charater.  I'll start recording my level, Small Guns skill, and the DMG of Amata's 10mm Pistol.  It's not quite at 100%, but I won't repair it or use it from this point on, so that it will remain a constant variable.  See below.  Servius 20:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Increasing your small guns does improve your accuracy outside of VATS - for example a hunting rifle at small guns 100 has o spread, so it shoots exactly where your crosshair is

Servius' DMG calcs using Amata's 10mm Pistol
First, I'll reload the save before exiting the Vault 101 tunnel, un-tag Small Guns to get it as low as possible, and record the DMG score. I'll then remake my character the way I want and record that too. Keep in mind that I will use the exact same weapon to record these scores and will not use it or repair it from this point on.
 * Another thought just occurred to me. Presuming Small Guns applies some %-based DMG modifier, smaller changes in DMG with smaller changes to Small Guns will be easier to see with a weapon with a higher base DMG rating.  With that in mind, I'll record 2 DMG stats.  The smaller one will be from Amata's 10mm Pistol.  The higher one will be from Lucas Simms's Chinese Assault Rifle.  Again, I won't use either so that their repair level remains a constant variable.  I can also use the Armored Vault 101 Jumpsuit to varry my Small Guns skill by 5 points every time I level to get even more data points.


 * Level 1; Small Guns 25; DMG 5
 * Level 1; Small Guns 39; DMG 6 (tagged Small Guns)
 * Level 2; Small Guns 55; DMG 7, 27 (dinged, added 11 points to Small Guns, and took the first level of Gun Nut)
 * Level 2; Small Guns 60; DMG 7, 28 (with the Armored Vault 101 Jumpsuit)
 * Level 3; Small Guns 70; DMG 7, 30
 * Level 3; Small Guns 75; DMG 8; 30
 * Level 4; Small Guns 80; DMG 8; 31
 * Level 4; Small Guns 85; DMG 8; 32
 * Level 5; Small Guns 90; DMG 8; 33
 * Level 5; Small Guns 95; DMG 8; 34
 * Level 8; Small Guns 100; DMG 9; 35

Findings: Amata's 10mm Pistol, though the highest quality gun I had from the start, had such a small change in damage that comparisons were useless. On the other hand, even though the CAR was only at maybe 40%, there was a relatively clear pattern. For ever 5 point increase in Small Guns, the damage increased ~3%. Looking just as the CAR DMG, here's a more detailed breakdown...

Servius' Expanded DMG Calc
I've run another test. This time I caught a char in the tunnel before they left Vault 101, so they're level 1 with no perks. I used hacks to add all sorts of uber weapons into my inventory, all at 100% condition. Then I hacked my Small Guns and Big Guns stats down to 5, checked the damage of each weapon, then moved the stats to 10, and so on.

I chose weapons from several categories to see if there were differences between types of weapons. I also wanted to use weapons with high DMG so that even small changes would show up. The weapons I used for this were...
 * The Mysterious Stranger's .44 Mangum
 * Blackhawk
 * Lincoln's Repeater
 * Sydney's 10mm "Ultra" SMG
 * The Terrible Shotgun
 * Vengeance
 * Xuanlong Assault Rifle

FINDINGS
 * The average % DMG increase for each additional 5 skill points balanced out at ~3.5% for each weapon.


 * Your Repair skill does not affect DMG.
 * With Small Guns at 40, I moved my Repair skill from 40 to 100 and it did not affect DMG at all.


 * The % increase in damage for increasing Small Guns or Big Guns by 5 points is different for each weapon, so there is not flat rate of increase for all weapons.
 * For example, between skill levels 5 and 10, the .44 Magnum's DMG increased 4.8% while the Xuanlong Assault Rifle's DMG increased 2.9%.


 * The % increase is not based on the damage of the weapon.
 * For example...
 * Blackhawk, with a lvl 5 DMG of 29, increased 3.4% at lvl 10
 * The Xuanlong Assault Rifle, with a lvl 5 DMG of 34, increased 2.9% at lvl 10
 * The Terrible Shotgun, with a lvl 5 DMG of 42, increased 4.8% at lvl 10


 * The increase for each additional 5 points to a skill drops off over time.
 * For example, the .44 Magnum's DMG increased 4.8% between skill lvl 5 and 10, but only 2.6% between 95 and 100.


 * The rate at which the % increase in DMG decreases is not smooth.
 * For example, the increase may drop off 0.2% every 5 addtional points, but then jump up 1.5% for no apparent reason. These hickups occur at different points, and at different frequencies, for different weapons.


 * Question: could the lack of smoothness in % damage increase be accounted for because of rounding error? The pipboy seems to round off damage to integer values, so an increase from 1.4 to 1.6 would appear in the pipboy as an increase from 1 to 2. Instead of listing the increase as, say, "2.6%", you should list it in the form of a possible range, like "2.1%-2.7%". You could calculate the minimum and maximum possible differences by first assuming that the pipboy figure is rounded up, and then by assuming it's rounded down. For example, if it lists "41" as a weapon's damage at a certain skill level, you could do your calculations first figuring from 40.5, and then figuring from 41.5, which represents the range of damage which would show up in the pipboy as "41".


 * However, this does not account for the possibility that the pipboy does not perform honest rounding. It's possible the pipboy truncates or rounds up, IE, "41" could represent 40.1 or 41.9, respectively, even though honest rounding would produce "40" and "42" for those figures. To make up for this, you could write up multiple charts, or even further expand your calculations to accomodate for that.


 * I have to go to work in an hour, but after I get back I'll see if I can perform a similar experiment, taking into account possible pipboy rounding errors.


 * I applaud your work, by the way.
 * 72.18.118.9 20:50, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Hehe, it's been a while since I read this. I think this was my first crack at figuring out the true DPS of the weapons. After this, I put most of my time into the Weapons page, developing a true DPS calc based on GECK stats, and beefing up the data on the Weapons page to show more useful combat stats. I've recently started playing FO3 again after a decent break and one of the mods I added has a cool feature where you can equip a weapon and hit a key and it will show you things like base DPS, crit chance add, crit damage, etc. I think it's called Fallout Wanderer's Edition (FWE). I basically loaded everything associated with the Fallout Inter-Operability Project (FOIP). It's a pretty good package. Servius 21:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Damage Factor
Does anyone else here think the damage factor in this is ridiculous and unrealistic? I mean, the higher your skill, The more a bullet hurts someone...What?

If you give a baby a gun, and get him to shoot a guy in the head, and give a trained marine a gun, and get him to shoot a guy in the head, Which one will the guy die from?.....

It's a little ridiculous in my opinion. Anyone agree? --74.5.177.164 13:08, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Higher skill also improves accuracy. I know it takes a little creative imagination from the player, but you could tell yourself that the reason a higher skill = higher damage is that, the better your aim, the better you are able to shoot someone where it hurts them more. For example, with better aim, you more often hit a critical organ than, say, their love handle or their thigh. Even with your headshot example, perhaps the baby with poor aim shoots your head, but it's only a grazing to your cheek, whereas the Marine pops you square in the forehead. Servius 19:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you missed the whole point of it being an RPG and skill progression being part of it, oh and ITS A GAME!GodPlageon 19:36, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It could also be reasoned that, with higher small guns skill, your character is able to clean/maintain/modify your weapon in favorable ways to foster a more hard-hitting fire. Admittedly, this theory conflicts with the existence of the entirely separate "repair" skill, but considering the two skills' relation to each other (both being modified by the "gun nut" perk, and both being tagged if you tell mister Brotch about your BB gun, for two examples), it tends to make sense to me in my personal judgement.
 * 72.18.118.9 20:56, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Too Strong????
Does anyone else think that with Point Lookout Small Guns outclassed Energy Weapons badly??? I mean with Ghoul Ecology and Superior Defender at 100 in both skills Xualong AS does twice the damage of A3-21's Plasma Rifle. Anyone else find this kinda unfair?? Setimir92 21:14, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

ive been playing all of the fallouts a lot lately, and i noticed in fallout 1, i can raise my skills over 100%? would increasing the percentage actually do anything or will it just waste points? i am a huge user of small guns, and i was wondering if it would raise my accuracy to say 95 or something no matter the shot. someone please get back to me on this im dying to know. please email me if you have an answer at boristhaspydr@aol.com

missing small guns
A good deal of small guns are missing from that list, such as the xuan long rifle many revolver pistols, silenced rifles and many other weapons from dlc packs Gary 23 05:49, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * As there was some work involved in preparing the table for the page, it was my intention to catalogue the primary types of small guns available in Fallout 3, and as such had specifically excluded unique variants. If someone wishes to incorporate any non-standard guns, then they are welcome to do so. 06:32, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I already reached 100 at small guns, will using perks to +small guns or armor/cloth with + small guns increase it to 100+ or will it will always be maxed out at 100? If so I will consider different armor, maybe +perception :D
 * I already reached 100 at small guns, will using perks to +small guns or armor/cloth with + small guns increase it to 100+ or will it will always be maxed out at 100? If so I will consider different armor, maybe +perception :D

Small Guns
I disagree with the article stating Small Guns can compete with other weapons in terms of damage. Even if I think Small Guns are indeed better than Energy Weapons - when it comes to range on top of damage - I don't think Small Guns can compete with Big Guns.

When Sniper comes into play, Big Guns do MUCH more instant deaths per burst: when Sniper is on, in combination with the Better Criticals perk, the damage become irrelevant and only the number of bullets per burst matters. All miniguns fire 40 bullets per burst, except for the odd (and expensive) Vindicator. That means a potential for 8 instant deaths per burst (20% instant death). On the other hand the Small Guns with 12 bullets max per burst can only expect 2 or 3 instant deaths per burst.

That doesn't mean Small Guns are not viable. Certainly not. It is indeed a very good choice, especially because Big Guns is a lot more demanding in terms of stats (ST), skill points (no books, lower starting value) and availability (early mid-game at best). However, it should not be said Small Guns can compete in terms of damage, or efficiency even (instant death).

Skill checks
There are a least two skill checks linked to small guns in Fallout 3.

The Lost Initiate - although repair and gun nut will also work.

Big Trouble in Big Town - "With at least 50 in the small guns skill, they may be taught how to use conventional firearms, and a makeshift shooting range of bottles and cans appears that the player must shoot at. "