Talk:Westside

Any more slums in New Vegas aside from Fremont?i put a picture of a different game on a Fallout wiki and there nothin you can do bout it 12:52, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

map marker???
The map marker link is broken, i dont know how to fix it, can someone oblige?. thanks 86.162.138.175 13:16, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

B Team
Gotta question who was responsible for programing this area. Interns have to learn somehow I guess. --TuskNB 04:48, February 26, 2011 (UTC)

colonialist apologia and other fantastic improbabilities
What's with the "colonialist apologia" comment? Also what's with the "economically viable" comment?--Ant2242 (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * In its simplest terms, arguing that the NCR is free to screw Outer Vegas over by arbitrarily restricting access to Lake Mead water is untenable, especially when the entire point of Westside is to demonstrate how NCR's thinking - focused on advancing its own goals ahead of everyone else - is myopic and denies local communities the ability to flourish, which could also benefit them.
 * In other words, colonialism: NCR treats the Mojave as a colony to be exploited (water from Lake Mead, power from Hoover Dam, crops from sharecroppers, what have you), rather than a partner and equal. I cut a shitload of stuff out and tried to provide a more neutral tone, or at least one more in line with developer intentions, rather than a tract that boils down to "you can dictate terms to natives if you have enough guns". Tagaziel (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * They are operating and maintaining the waterworks. They are not denying them the access to their springs nor access to go to the lake and gather water there. Furthermore I don't recall any mention of the westsider's ever using the system before, but now that the NCR repaired and began to use it its suddenly their ancestor's ancient right?
 * Now as for this "arbitrary restriction" of access to the waterworks, the entire quest proves this claim false. Remember the OSI doing all the calculations to dictate what water goes where? The NCR took on the mantle of the water company, as such they operate and maintain the entire waterworks. They dictate where the water travels through the system they now operate. If they didn't make restrictions it would be wasted. Furthermore if you can't pay your bills then then you aren't "flourishing." Please keep in mind that they never had to pay a water bill before. They are used to just going to the springs and taking what they need. Now they need more, a lot more, with the convenience of having it piped directly to them clean and pure.
 * As for them "flourishing" they wouldn't have ever been that big if the NCR and House wasn't bringing trade to the region. Nor would they be in such a bind if they had a more plentiful water source. As the quest clearly indicates. The town itself was always a port in the storm from the Wasteland, not a burgeoning farmland only kept down by "da man".

--Ant2242 (talk) 20:58, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Really, I don't really care for your colonial apologia, Ant. The NCR moves in, seizes Mojave territories, resources, and forces people to live under their rules or move away. You think that's OK, that's your problem. I consider the idea of grinding people into a fine red mist for economic gain to be morally reprehensible. So does FNV - the entire point of the game is that the Republic doesn't care for people who aren't its own citizens and will destroy them if it means improved profit margins.
 * And seriously, " If they didn't make restrictions it would be wasted"? The entire point of the quest is that restrictions are harming the wasteland and the NCR by ruining communities that could otherwise thrive and prosper. It's an argument in favor of socializing basic necessities like food and water, rather than privatizing them to benefit people with the deepest pockets.
 * Seriously. "Water company"? Privatizing essential services is ruinous, as is subjecting every other essential service to generating profits. Tagaziel (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * "colonial apologia" Please define.
 * Yes, the NCR moves into previously abandoned and derelict facilities, and restores them to working order. Then if you wish to use the service provided you exchange capital.
 * Please provide an example of - paraphrased quote: "the NCR turning people into red mist to improve profit margins."
 * Yes, Letting the water run in your Kitchen Sink, your Bathroom Sink, your Shower and your Garden Hose all night is a waste of resources. That's why there is a knob. By shutting off the water from areas of the city that does not have people living in it and prioritizing it to where it does isn't a bad thing. In fact delivering the water to those who pay their water bills means the water is being used in the most efficient manner possible. To be clear the NCR as a governing body operating and maintaining the waterworks isn't privatizing the water as a whole, only its transportation and treatment. The water that they are in operation of is what they are charging people for. They are still free to use their springs in the valley and go to the River or Lake to stock up.
 * On a separate note: Is the NCR gov considered a private organization?--Ant2242 (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh, so Westside is an area that "does not have people living in it"? Or are people without NCR's citizenship not people in your eyes?

Westside demonstrates that delivering water to the all communities in need is a sound strategy, as it allows them to thrive. Westside makes good use of the water and became an oasis of prosperity and stability in outer Vegas. If the NCR could see beyond the tip of its nose, it would realize it. And in case you missed it, no, Westsiders are not in a position to keep bringing water in from Lake Mead through NCR territory, and there are no reliable sources of water in the nearby areas. It's kind of a big point.

In case you fail to see what that nets the NCR, here's a quick breakdown: Extra food output from outer Vegas communities, security for outer Vegas trade routes, damming the flow of the Fiends, increased popular support in the Mojave (which is explicitly a goal of the NCR administration, except they want to control the food supply as well as the water)... Too many to mention. All it takes is seeing beyond the selfish capitalism of the NCR (which is also what the game criticizes).

Thankfully though, the NCR is not a private organization; privatization would make the system even worse than it already is, as demonstrated in other cases by the Van Graffs, Crimson Caravan, and the Gun Runners. Tagaziel (talk) 06:39, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Never said such a claim.
 * I never missed it. I am saying that the entire community wasn't built on industrial farming. Nor could it at its location. Miles away from a larger body of water. Note that I said larger, as I am referring to the springs that made the valley have its meadows. The settlement is using more water than it can replenish miles from a source that could accommodate its newfound farming lifestyle.
 * What I've been trying to get through is that even if they keep stealing the water service they still can't make enough to pay a simple water bill. Nor has anyone gone to the NCR for the purpose of trade negotiations. Something that would probably prove fruitful.
 * I have not forgotten. Here's what I see of the situations: The Fiends haven't been taken care of because of the same reason for the Powder Gangers existence - troop allocation. Increased food production to prevent a projected famine: the Thalar Act would be working if the water wasn't being rerouted. The way they have the flow allocated is down to the last drop efficient. Nor does it help that Vault 34's reactor is leaking into the water table. Increased popular support for the NCR in the Mojave: all they have to do is stop spreading themselves a little too thin and talk to the people directly. As evidenced with the good ending for Freeside (#2).
 * Capitalism =/= Imperialsim
 * ...soooo now you are thankful for the NCR gov. restoring and utilizing the waterworks after decades of abandonment. Quite the turnaround. As for those merchant houses; the first is the Van Graff, they are a ruthless Matriarical Mafia that gets by on monopoly; the second the Crimson Caravan is a ruthless Corporate General Store with designs on Monopoly, the third is the Gun Runners who effectively have a monopoly on weaponry to the point that they are an unofficial arm of the NCR military industrial complex. To further the point: Capitalism =/= Monopoly
 * --Ant2242 (talk) 23:32, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Uh, yes, capitalism is both of these. The very fact that you have single merchant houses pushing to monopolize entire sectors of trade (and actually do it, as with the Gun Runners and the Van Graffs) is a flaw of the capitalist model. NCR's imperialism is a matter of fact. This is not debatable, this is literally stated outright throughout the game and separately by NCR. There's a reason the official game guide desccription states the following:

Nowhere is this more evident than in the Mojave, where the occupation of Hoover Dam has improved access to electricity and water, but at the cost of straining its budget and embroiling its armed forces in a morally corrosive imperialist project.
 * The entire series is, in fact, a damning critique of capitalism, especially its neoliberal excesses.
 * Back on point: The NCR is supposed to act as a government for the Mojave and has, in fact, taken jurisdiction from the Desert Rangers over the region. Ignoring the undemocratic nature of such a takeover - nobody voted to let the NCR in, much less was consulted about it - part of the government's duties is to provide services and basic necessities to all. Instead, the NCR decides to control the water through expensive, strict licenses for using waterworks the NCR didn't even build in the first place, shutting out independent communities (Boyd sends soldiers to stop water flowing into Westside), and supporting only their own farming projects.
 * So no, they aren't doing things that are reasonable. Instead, they are stomping over the locals, who are forced to pay for access to basic necessities and resort to duplicity in order to obtain things that are necessary for life.
 * Seriously, you're basically ignoring the entire point of the game in favor of offering apologia for a project that's explicitly imperialist, described as such by numerous characters and the project lead himself. Tagaziel (talk) 08:23, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * ...In my humble opinion it seems like you are projecting your biases into the plot line.
 * If were going down that angle: 1) The Desert Rangers were never voted into office either. 2) The Desert Rangers voted, or at least chose to merge with the NCR, out of necessity. If we choose to argue that the Desert Rangers were the legitimate governing body of the region then that would make the NCR the successor once the Treaty was signed. 3) Where does it state that the NCR government must provide services and necessities beyond law and order? (Yes I am aware of the one offhand healthcare comment by Cassandra Moore and would love a more detailed explanation of what she meant.) 4) Even if that were the case Westside remains outside NCR territory as is its denizens not NCR citizens. (Not that I can recall much democratic activity in Westside.) Thus they are not entitled to NCR resources. 5) Yes the water company decides who gets water services, you pay for delivery and sanitation and it arrives. 6) No they didn't build it, they restored it after decades of abandonment, and now continue to maintain it while defending it. 7) Yes. You call in the police if something is stolen. They can either pay for the water service or they can make their own service. 8) They were stable before, stagnate but stable. A port in the storm, a trading hub of a semi-nomadic and very independent populace. One miles away from a large body of water capable of supporting industrial farming.
 * I am not ignoring anything. I would however love a link to the claim by the project lead if you please.--Ant2242 (talk) 00:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * --Ant2242 (talk) 00:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you are ignoring a direct quote from the strategy guide, which was made using materials from the developers. You are also ignoring the fact that Westside is over 40 kilometers in a straight line from Lake Las Vegas and even further from Lake Mead.

Also, I'm done. I'm not discussing it anymore. If you think the NCR owns the water in the Mojave because they have guns and people living in abject poverty is fine, despite the NCR being supposed to act as a government for the Mojave, you're beyond help. Spare me your Reaganite BS. Tagaziel (talk) 07:09, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Which quote specifically? Its been a while.
 * ...Mmmhhhmmmm So You Say.--Ant2242 (talk) 08:41, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I finally got a chance to re-read the guide. They do mention NCR imperialism, quite a few times in fact. Still doesn't prove the claim you keep stating that the NCR believes it owns all the water. I never said they did nor do the NCR. Nor has it been stated anywhere that the NCR's objective as a government was to lift its citizens, let alone non-citizens, out of abject poverty. I have not ignored the fact that Westside is a good 25 miles from Lake Mead, in fact I made the point quite clear that being so far from a water source that could support such an agricultural undertaking as industrial farming was futile and detrimental to their objective of bringing the populace out of poverty. The main fact is that the NCR wants to annex the region, so far it hasn't. It neither controls all the territory nor does all its populace operate under its laws. They cannot act as Westside's government because Westside chooses not to be a part of the NCR.
 * On a side note, I find your phrase "you're beyond help" and "Spare me your Raganite BS." ....interesting, and if that's how you wish to end this conversation then fine. As you wish.
 * --Ant2242 (talk) 00:37, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, because I'm not interested in discussing anything when you think that the government doesn't have a duty to look after the wellbeing of their citizens.Tagaziel (talk) 07:21, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Westside isn't a part of the NCR.--Ant2242 (talk) 08:04, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Once the occupation of the Mojave culminates in the annexation, it will be. Of course, you're correct, people crushed by abject poverty are easier to break and force into submission, so denying water to Outer Vegas and hoarding it for the NCR is a ruthless way to establish its dominance. But the Republic aspires to more than just a raiding empire that subjugates regions at gunpoint.
 * And, as explained, providing water to Westside is smart for a variety of reasons. Idiotic nationalism of only serving me, mine, and my own, even if the "others" will shortly be forced to become mine is one part of NCR's imperialism. Tagaziel (talk) 09:07, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
 * So you acknowledge that the populace of Westside and their territory are not NCR as of 2281. That means that they are an independent political entity. Therefore the people aren't NCR citizens and are not paying taxes, this means that they are not entitled to any such service the NCR government owes its citizens. Then you claim that the NCR is hording water, when in fact they are providing a service of water sanitation and delivery. The people of Westside clearly state that they already have access to water, just not near enough for their recent industrial farming endeavor.
 * I'm not arguing against Westside getting more water. I'm arguing that they have no right to steal the water delivery service (For example, Hector gets paid for his deliveries, your water company gets paid to do the same work for you.), and that they are too far from a large water source. One capable of supporting such a industrial farming endeavor. Basically they were set up for failure due to Anderson and his biases.
 * --Ant2242 (talk) 05:08, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

No. I reject that kind of inhumane logic. You can't declare ownership of water and deny it to people based on the fact that you own guns. The parallel with the water company is even dumber. Westside explicitly shows that NCR's greed and selfishness is actively hurting the people of the wasteland. Which it explicitly does. Westside shows that there's enough water to go around and support farming and enriching the wasteland, if the NCR could pull its head out of its ass.

You literally miss the point of the game: NCR is hurting itself and its campaign with its greed and selfishness. Westside and outer Vegas would support the NCR if it didn't try to control water allocation.

That's the end of the discussion. I'm not interested in it. You want to do something worthwhile, start splitting up large articles and filling existing ones in as with deathclaw (Fallout 4). Tagaziel (talk) 06:53, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes. You can legally own a water sanitation and delivery service. Yes you can legally defend yourself and your property, ie the service - their work. Westside shows that Anderson upended a stagnant but stable independent trading and shelter settlement by getting them to believe that they had a right to someone else's work. The quest clearly shows that if you keep diverting the water to Westside the Sharecropper farms start to fail. Why? Because their water Delivery and Sanitation comes from the Lake Mead waterworks. I didn't miss the point that both sides had their heads up their posteriors due to their own incompetence. Whether it was bureaucratic or moral (Anderson's "Greater Good" ideology). Even past this, they make the point to say that they can't even make enough after the farming venture to afford the water service.

....mhhmmm interesting ....you know I must try that again sometime. You know like Westside, Ghost, Betsy, or maybe the first half of Kiddy Kingdom. ;p :( It has been a while though. --Ant2242 (talk) 12:06, 29 September 2018 (UTC)