The Vault talk:Fallout 3 locations project/Archive 2

Images
I may or may not have said this before, but there's no way I can get those local maps. Do we already have them just laying about somewhere? Nitty 14:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is why I've split up the "to-do" list for each article in multiple parts :) This way everybody can concentrate on what he/she likes/can do and someone else can do the rest. The raw local map images need to be taken by PC users; it's simply far easier and results in a lot better quality since we can simply use the  command to turn the fog of war off and get a full image of the local map. If you're trying to get rid of the fow manually, there'll always be corners where you simply can't get close enough to make it go away. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That explains it... okay, should we start filling in spaces and adding templates to talk pages? Nitty 15:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already had my trusty bot add the template to the article pages. I had to ditch the talk page idea since I couldn't have done that automatically - and there's no way I'm doing it manually, call me spoiled :) Which spaces do you want to fill in? -- Porter21 (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you ready?
I can try and get underway with the settlements, if you so wish. Spoon 15:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm concerned, people can start taking on articles if they like :) Just remember to enter in the progress table what you're planning to do and what you've done. I'll clean up the talk page in a bit now that the concept stuff is done. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

And how would I go about that? I'm a little confused. Spoon 15:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You just follow the instructions in the progress section :):* Add your name to the tasks you are currently working on (simply insert, this adds your signature without date):* Mark tasks you have completed with  :* Once all other tasks have been completed, someone else should review the result. This is done to ensure nothing has been overlooked. If that has been done, add   to the "peer review" and "all done" columns.
 * -- Porter21 (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Like I've already done, or to ALL the ones I'm doing? Spoon 15:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To all the ones you're going to do. It's basically to avoid that someone else duplicates your work or gets in your way. Just keep it reasonable (i.e. don't mark half of the articles with your name), but I think you already knew that :) -- Porter21 (talk) 15:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

What are the names of the houses in Andale? I can't remember, or find them anywhere. Spoon 16:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Should be the Smith's House, the Wilson's House, and Old Man Harris's House, if I remember correctly. Nitty 16:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You can find those on the Cell ID page, too. Just sort by GECK ID and then search for the locations starting with "Andale..." -- Porter21 (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright, Andale is rewritten. Just needs: CellID and the actual names of the houses. Spoon 16:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I did alright. Just needed to cut that stuff about the kids. Spoon 16:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeap, pretty good. Just a few minor kinks here and there :) Hope you guys don't mind if I look over your shoulders for the first few articles. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey, not at all. Please check how I put this ID in. Spoon 16:35, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hope you saw what's wrong - the parameter is called  for the cellname and   for the number. Anyway, nothing much to nag about the Arefu edit :) Just a little thing, the section names shouldn't be capitalized (i.e. Related quests and not Related Quests). -- Porter21 (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Also going to put down what I noticed about Nitpicker's edits. This is not to single you out or something, merely putting it here so others can benefit from it as well :) For one, please try to adhere to the article layouts a bit more - after all, making the articles more uniform is the whole point of this. "Layout" is pretty much a required section - what we should try to achieve is that someone who reads the article gets an idea how the location is set up (without looking at the picture). "Appearances" is also a required section (I should probably mark the required ones in the layout tables) and should be added where it's missing. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a cellname or ID for Arefu. Spoon 17:53, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it'll be that way for most outdoor locations. Just add it to the list under "IDs / Wasteland" above, someone with the GECK (likely me) needs to find out which outdoor cell it is located in. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Big Town needs checking. Spoon 18:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Made some small adjustments. For towns, you don't need to list the cell names/ids for the buildings in the town article (these should be in the building articles). The cell of Big Town itself is another exterior location; I've added it to the list above. I removed the note about the water caravan - these travel all over the wasteland with Broken Steel installed, Big Town is just one of their stops. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:10, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Late Comer
If there's any image editing to be done let me know and I'll try to get it done, I can't say that I can be completely involved because I'm also in the NPC project, but any difficult image editing(cropping, creating false backgrounds) I can do. I don't have fallout 3 for PC so emailing pictures will have to do. If you want some advice on editing just leave a message. Lastly, I was fearing this as soon as I realized the Locations Project had started, Trivia sections are used for outside relations, what about Easter Eggs like the Big Teddy Bear in one of the Sat-coms. Otherwise Trivia sections are going to get bogged down in things like this. If there's a way I could be considered a partial participant let me know. --FLaSHBaCK HaSH 19:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Easter eggs like the one you mentioned should be mentioned in the "Layout" section. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Evergreen Mills
Why is this listed as a dungeon? A dungeon more closely describes the Metro stations.--Throwback 19:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Well its not a building which is singular its more of a raider settlement but Settlements are only that if the player can run around without being attacked by always hostile characters...well i think thats a settlement. --FLaSHBaCK HaSH 22:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

That's like saying that because Great Britain is friendly to us, they are a nation; whereas, as North Korea is not friendly to us, they are not a nation.--Throwback 01:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Porter's definition:
 * Settlements: These typically include other buildings, have merchants and usually non-hostile NPCs.
 * "Dungeons". Areas which are populated by enemies where you can find "treasure".

Spoon 01:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Dungeon is applied in the broad sense here, not in the "underground location with goblins" sense. In terms of article layout (i.e. required sections etc), Evergreen Mills is no different from the Sunken Sewer, the Dunwich Building, Vault 106 or Metro Central. You need to describe the same things in all of these: what the location looks like, what enemies inhabit it, which zones it is split up into etc. As such, I used "dungeon" as a term for these since it seems more handy than "enemy-populated area of varying type" :)
 * The other two archetypes require modified article layouts. Settlements need listings of the buildings within them and a list of its named inhabitants, for instance - describing all buildings in a settlement in the main article in the "per zone" style would be simply be too much for the medium to large settlements, as such it is better to make subpages for each building. Articles for buildings within towns do not need map marker images (since they're part of a town which has one). Otherwise you could probably argue that the layout is largely identical with that for "dungeons". I just find it handy to have a sample article for that type of location since we have a lot of articles of that kind. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:02, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello? Is anyone paying attention?
Besides Spoon and Porter, of course. Whenever you guys are ready, you can pick a spot and start working. Just make sure to follow the guidlines above the assignment list. Nitty 21:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok some things I've noticed with Cliffside
Things to do Random, the dungeon example page is missing the local map(i think) image. Thats all --FLaSHBaCK HaSH 22:59, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I need someone with GECK to check Ref and Cell
 * I would like to edit the scenery image and get rid of the dead bodies strewn out.( I can do this lickety split) But I don't know how to upload the new image.
 * I've added the local map images to the sample page, slipped my mind. Cell names and ref IDs can be found at this page - if it's not in there, please add it to the list near the top of this talk page.


 * To replace existing images, just click on the image in question. This will take you to the image page where you'll find a link called "Upload a new version of this file". Just make sure you download the full-size version of the image before editing it - the image displayed in the article (and on the file page) are just thumbnails; to get to the full-size one, click on the image on the file page. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:15, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Unified page layout project
I think we should decide on a basic layout for character and location (and other) pages common for all games, not just Fallout 3. I created The Vault:Unified page layout project for this purpose. Ausir(talk) 23:58, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this another project because two massive ones are enough for now.--FLaSHBaCK HaSH 03:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There are two massive projects for Fallout 3, but this project is supposed to actually supplement the others, since its goal is figuring out a common layout for all pages regardless of game, which can then be used by game-specific projects. If this project is supposed to unify the layout of Fallout 3 location pages, it's best to create a universal layout for location pages regardless of game. If you're only concerned with Fallout 3, then the location part of the new project will likely not be of any concern to you, since it's mostly about taking Porter's guidelines and making them more universal, to be applicable to all games. Ausir(talk) 03:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree and I'll head over in a bit. I just want to get this project going properly first. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Factions
For the faction part of infoboxes, is there a list of factions we should use when editing in that information? For example, I'm editing Agatha's House, which doesn't have anything for the faction section of the infobox. Would it be something generic, like "Friendly Wastelander," something more specific like "Quest Giving Friendly Wastelander," or since she's not of an obvious faction should it just be blank?Mister President 01:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd just make it "None". Ausir(talk) 01:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If there's no real faction for a given building, just leave it empty. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that I have internet at my house again, do you want me to add the faction that the GECK says they belong to?--Kingclyde 17:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Citadel
It's a real mess. I'm not sure what we keep. Spoon 02:05, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I can go over it if you want. If you want to try yourself, a few pointers: "History" can be turned into "Background" easily. Layout it obviously missing and needs to be added. Quite a bit of the stuff in there can be moved to the A-Ring, B-Ring or Citadel Lab articles. The inventory list of the armory (which is given twice in the article) should either go in the Citadel Lab article or be removed entirely (if it's not fixed loot but random, I'm not sure of the details here). -- Porter21 (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments on the first round of edits
I've seen you guys have started working, and that's good :) However, I'm gonna give a few comments on stuff I've noticed. I haven't had time to go over all articles which were edited in the last few hours yet, so I'm gonna add more later. Also, please do not take anything I put here personally if you think it applies to your edits - the goal of my comments is not to put people down but to make sure we're all doing this in the same manner so we get quality articles out of this.

Alright, the comments:
 * Take your time. This project is about producing quality articles, not quickly doing a lot of articles. If you can do both, good for you - but quality is the main goal.
 * Layout: This section is required. It needs to be in every location article and it needs to be a written description of how the location looks and is set up. If the article is currently missing that, add it.
 * Capitalization: I know this seems nitpicky, but please do not overcapitalize the section headings. It should be "Related quests", not "Related Quests", and "Notable loot" and not "Notable Loot". Having it one way in one article and another way in another looks unprofessional and not overcapitalizing is a general convention at this wiki.
 * Peer reviews: This should only be done after all other tasks for an article have been completed. Please do no partial reviews, it's not necessary. Think about it as the final check whether everything for this article has been checked/improved before it gets marked off the list.

Alright, that's it for the first round. A lot of edits have been quite good already and I'm sure we'll get to the point where I can spare you my lengthy sermons soon :) -- Porter21 (talk) 08:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "...seems nitpicky..." That's my job. Minor gripe aside, I'm glad to see that Porter mostly approves of the things we've already done. Nitty 16:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments on second round of edits
Next installment in the series ;)

General

 * Please use full sentences. Sentences missing subjects etc do not read well and look unprofessional.
 * Bolding: Only the first occurence of the article title (and the first occurence of alternate titles) in the text should be bold. Particularly, the name should not be bold in the Appearances section.
 * Section ordering: The articles should have the sections in the same order as the sample layouts.

Individual sections
-- Porter21 (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Intro section: Make sure these have all the required info according to the sample layout.
 * Layout: Please describe the location and do not just move the already existing random tidbits there. The idea is that somebody who has not seen the location will have an idea of what it looks like after reading the article.
 * Layout (part 2): Beds/Nuka-Cola Vending Machines should be mentioned in the layout sections if there are any.
 * Inhabitants: Only settlements should have an extra section for inhabitants. For buildings, they should be mentioned in the intro sentence. For dungeons, they go in the section descriptions.
 * Galleries: Please use the gallery extension for these. Instructions on how to use at the link.

That was mostly me, wasn't it? Spoon 14:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The gallery bit? Yes :P If you mean all points, not really. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:55, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate the 'Layout' sections. Can we make a guideline for them, so we know exactly what to put in? Spoon 15:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignore that, I'm retarded. Spoon 15:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure what I'd put in the guideline other than what I said above; the basic idea is that somebody who has not seen the location will have an idea of what it looks like after reading the article. For "dungeons", describe the looks and arrangement/layout of the section; what enemies are there; stuff like what containers can be found here, things like beds, workbenches, beds. Non-notable loot can also be described here if it's not random. For some examples beyond the sample pages, you could look at Satellite Relay Station or Museum Authority Building. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above was written before Spoon's last entry but I figured I'd submit it anyway ;) -- Porter21 (talk) 15:14, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Gameboy returns
I'm finally back and I've got the pc version of fallout 3 now. If you guys still need me then I'm here.Gameboy627 03:12, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You can always help with taking screenshots and local map images, we have a definte shortage of people who can do that. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Appearances section
Per discussion at The Vault talk:Unified page layout project/location, I think that the Appearances section should be moved down, after bugs but before gallery. That's where I always placed it myself. Ausir(talk) 03:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's keep the discussion in the unified page layout project (any participants from this project are of course welcome to comment over there). -- Porter21 (talk) 07:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Please read
I've gone over all base FO3 and Broken Steel articles done so far; this should basically cover at least one article of every project participant who has rewritten articles to this point.

Since I do not want to do "per-participant-evaluations" as this could easily be seen as singling people out, I would suggest everyone takes a look at the articles he/she has done so far and compares what I've changed. You can do that easily via the article history; just compare my last revision and your last rev. If you have any questions why I changed something, please ask.

Please also take a look at my general comments above; they usually cover issues I have noticed in articles from more than one editor.

Please do not be disheartened if you think you have done something wrong; none of the critique is meant personal. We just need to be sure we're all on the same page, otherwise the project will not reach its goal :) -- Porter21 (talk) 10:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Building and dungeon layout merged
I've merged the "bulding" and "dungeon" layouts into a "standard" one - they were very similar anyway. Hopefully it'll be less confusing this way. Added some small remarks to the "settlement" layout to make it applicable for districts (such as Falls Church or The Pitt Uptown) as well. -- Porter21 (talk) 22:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Grid location proposal
I think, there'll be useful also point where location on pipboy-3000 default map grid ("south-west of K-9", for example). Not every map screenshots are good to find locations in game. Kelebmel 11:21, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I think we already have one of those in use. A coordinates section would be very helpful for locating out-of-the-way unmarked spots, like The Roach King's Throne and Musty Caverns. Nitty 05:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This is needed for marked places too. Kelebmel 11:21, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a sound idea in principle - the question would be how the map quadrants would be named. Fallout 3 map uses numbers for both horizontal and vertical axis; denominations such as 12,14 are bound to confuse people. Whereas if you use a mixed letter/number system, people might confuse it with the names of the actual markers on Fallout 3 map. -- Porter21 (talk) 12:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should adopt the official guide's system? Ausir(talk) 15:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I've named quadrant 'K-9' only for example. Kelebmel 00:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know, the system from the official guide is somewhat arbitrary. The numbering goes from -30 to 20 on both axis - I'd understand that if the 0,0 cell was supposed to be centered on something significant like Vault 101, but it isn't. -25 to 25 would make more sense to me. -- Porter21 (talk) 18:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it'll have no sence for gamers. May be some territory was cutted from game (+20 to +30 at both axes). It's normal, that enimies respawns here. (for example, walk along south bordinary near Lucky's) Kelebmel 13:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The simplest thing to me seems to be to start in the bottom left corner and number like a coordinate plane. From that point, each block up is 1 (or 10, if that's more aesthetically pleasing) and each block right is 1 (or 10). Actually, go for 10. Since 10 lets people put in coordinates like (11, 56) for places not exactly on lines. I don't think it's all that complicated, especially if there's a minimap picture to go with it. Mister President 08:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Well, each of the larger blocks (which are currently labelled 1 to 17 on Fallout 3 map) is split up into 3 smaller ones by default so it'd be easiest to label these smaller blocks from 1 to 51 in my opinion. The main question is whether to have the 1,1 cell in the top left/bottom left corner or in the middle. -- Porter21 (talk) 08:27, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So we would have 17 "Large Blocks," or "Sectors 1-13," with 51 "Subdivisions?" Or would it just be 1 through 51 in the labeling? I definitely don't think we should start in the middle because that would be very confusing. I'd prefer bottom left corner as a starting place myself. Mister President 19:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Large Blocks" and "Subdivisions" is much more simpler to find, than '(31:20)'. -- 18:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox guidelines added and "Trivia" section renamed
Since it was requested, I've added some guidelines which fields an infobox needs to have to be considered complete. As part of the unified page layout project, we've also decided to generally rename the "Trivia" sections to "Behind the scenes"; this also affects this project. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I know the infobox stuff confused me. Mister President 08:13, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Releated Quests
Should we list unmarked quests that are specific to the area or should they be linked to the people that concerns the quest? Example would be Gallows Humor. Now that I think of it, it should be at the person. Well, let me know.--Kingclyde 17:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

So far, it seems unmarked quests go with the location. Let's just keep it that way. Spoon 18:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, because I don't see any of the unmarked quests at little lamplight, rivet city and a few other places. That's what made me ask.--Kingclyde 18:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

... er, Little Lamplight has lots of unmarked ones in there... Spoon 18:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind I'm a dumbass--Kingclyde 19:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Image guidelines
Please discuss additions to the guidelines on the project page first, especially since the project has already been running for a while. That said, I primarily disagree with this line:
 * Local map and world map images should be free of scan lines. Use this mod (http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=274).

People should not be required to install mods to participate in the project, I know I'm certainly not going to as I prefer my game to be unmodified. -- Porter21 (talk) 06:54, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

I have put a strike line on the forementioned guideline concerning the local and world maps with scanlines, as it has not been discussed and have issues. --Like-minded 10:24, September 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Let's get some other opinions on this, we can always reinstate it if the majority of particpants thinks it's prudent. I understand your motive (at least I think so) but we shouldn't make it too hard for people to participate. -- Porter21 (talk) 10:33, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

You mean the scanline as in the thing that goes across the PipBoy when it's open to make t feel more "real?" If that's the case, I say keep it as long as it doesn't interfere with seeing the location of the place that's trying to be showcased. Even though I don't think downloading mods is a big deal for Fallout 3's PC users, I also don't think that they should be forced into it, either. Mister President 01:03, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Q: Is the installation of the mod very complex?

A: Here's the breakdown of the No Scan Lines or Distort Effect On Pipboy mod:

/Data/Textures/pipboy3000/pipboydistorteffectmap.dds

/Data/Textures/pipboy3000/pipboyscanlines.dds

The installation is very simple. The mod has a rar file with a data folder in it. Copy the data folder to fallout3 folder. Done. No file is overwriten(it's to add), and to uninstall it, just simply remove those two files. Done.

--Like-minded 00:13, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Porter. If myself or anyone else wants to add a high quality image, we should not be required to add a mod before we can submit it. I personally do not like using mods as they tend to be unreliable and make games unstable. I'm for not requiring that mod.--Kingclyde 00:25, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Shops - inventories and keys
Not sure what to do with shop inventory containers and the keys to them. In my opinion, a sentence should be added to "Layout" saying something like " contains the shop inventory.   carries the   which opens it." Opinions? -- Porter21 (talk) 12:21, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not like it takes up insane amounts of space in an article, so tossing that on into articles should be fine. Like for Moira's place, which if memory serves has a tool cabinet looking deal for a shop container, would be listed as: "Craterside Supply's Inventory in the specially named tool cabinet contains the shop inventory (then list anything special that wouldn't ever change). The key to this is found on Moira, the shop owner." Mister President 16:53, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, all of the shop inventories are randomized. We may have to start a different project for the shop inventories one day but the amount of GECK work required for that is rather extensive and would go beyond the scope of this project in my opinion. I wouldn't list the content at all, just mention that the container is there and what it is for. My question was more about where to put them - "Layout" or "Notable loot". In my opinion, they should go into "Layout" like all other containers. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:00, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think Notable Loot, since you loot it, and since you KNOW you'll get something out of it, it's pretty notable. But it really could be either one. I'd just rather go with the Loot categorization since, well, it's loot. Mister President 00:44, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

"Section" clarification needed?
There seems to be an issue regarding the interpretation of the term "section" used in the project guidelines. In detail, the issue relates to whether buildings are sections of towns. The following is what I had in mind for a section; in retrospective it may have been necessary to clarify it in the guidelines.


 * "Section" in general refers to a loading zone. For standard location articles, the loading zones they are divided in do not have own articles but are only described in the location article (which is why the Layout section is to be divided into these sections). As an example, take Evergreen Mills, the sample article. "Evergreen Mills Bazaar", "Evergreen Mills Foundry" and the three shacks outside are considered sections as they are all own loading zones.


 * Buildings in towns are a special case and do have own articles since describing them in the town articles would make these articles rather lengthy and confusing for the reader. Therefore, they are not considered sections in terms of the project guidelines and the only content of buildings which is to be mentioned in the town article is their notable loot to provide an easy overview. As an example, take Megaton and the houses within - each house has an own article and only their notable loot is mentioned in the town article.


 * For a town, "sections" only applies to loading zones the town is divided into which do not have own articles. The only town this applies to (that I can think of at the moment) is Rivet City; the sections here would be the marketplace (the area as a whole, not the shops - they have own articles) and the three decks. The Bridge Tower is debatable, although I would lean towards merging it with the Rivet City main article as a section.

I was wondering whether this should be included in the guidelines and whether there are disagreements. -- Porter21 (talk) 13:19, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's still kind of confusing. The way I think of it is you have a location, which is kind of the broad class name. I'll use automobiles for analogies. You have a location, like the Mills or Megaton, and each of those is like a car. Well, a car can be broken down into parts. You have the engine block, you have the passenger compartment, and you have the storage space. Similarly, the locations can be broken down. Megaton has NPC homes, your house (optionally), and shops. The Mills has an outside, an inside, and a center inside of the inside (if that makes sense). The engine block of a car can be broken down into parts like spark plugs, pistons, and a battery. The homes can be broken down into levels and rooms, the shops into levels and goods, and likewise with stuff found in other areas. Mister President 16:59, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't think it's necessary to break down "Layout" sections further than loading zones/cells. If a location has only an exterior and one cell, I wouldn't start further artificially dividing it - one "Layout" section for exterior and one for the interior is enough. Loading zones/cells are sort of "natural" boundaries.


 * The main point is to tell which loading zones/cells are to be described in which article. For standard locations, it's easy - all cells which make up this location are to be described in its article, with each cell having a sub-section in "Layout". For towns, this is not entirely the case - the building cells would have their own articles and none of their content needs to be in the town article (except for notable loot for reader convenience).


 * This essentially what I wrote before - is it clearer now? I previously tried to avoid "GECK speak" since not everybody is familiar with it, maybe it made the explanation more complicated than necessary. -- Porter21 (talk) 17:10, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Not really much clearer for me. You mean have an "Exterior" that lists places outside and goes into detail if you don't need to pass through a door, and an "Interior" that lists the places inside but links to articles for them? Mister President 00:48, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Not really, no. Seems I missed this entry in my holiday. The world of FO3 as a whole is made out of cells (a small map of sorts). When moving outside, the loading of cells is done in the background; usually you do not even notice it's happening. When moving indoors, you get a loading screen every time you move from one cell to another (usually by using a door). These indoor cells have names; you see them when looking at the door ("Door to XYZ"). Since the cells outside do not have names, we use the generic "Exterior" section to describe them. This section is not for places nearby or whatever; just the environment of the location's entrance. The interior cells do have names, hence we use these as section headlines and make an own section for each cell. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:19, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Porter drives people away
Another issue which was brought to my attention is that apparently my actions in terms of this project "erode" other editor's trust in making good future edits and my "persistent quest with disclosing details only after edit" is "disrespectful" to the project participants. I was wondering whether other editors feel that way as well. My goal is only to ensure this project produces standardized, high quality articles; however, if more editors feel this way I'll withdraw from the project. Feel free to speak your mind (just for people who do not know me that well, I'll state that I'll carry no ill-will towards people critizing me or ban them - I never do that; just to prevent people being afraid to voice their true opinion because I'm an admin). -- Porter21 (talk) 13:30, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I welcome the chance to discuss and clarify details, since when I first started editing an article I felt kind of lost as to what exactly needed to be done. Even if the details are late in coming, I'd rater have them late then not have them at all. This talk page is kind of for that purpose of getting together a set of guidelines for the articles, and if everyone throws in their two cents, we should come out with something acceptable for the community as a whole. So no, Porter you're not driving me outta here. Mister President 17:01, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Although I might disagree with some of the required fields (WHY MUST WE HAVE THE "XYZ HAS ONE INTERIOR SECTION" BIT? THE SENTENCE IS HORRIBLY WRITTEN AND REDUNDANT.), there's nobody else I'd rather have working the project. Nitty 01:00, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Local Map Images from Console?
I would like to participate in this project by adding images of local maps. I am working from a console version, however, so I was wondering if I would still be able to participate. Some images would have the "locator box" in it as it can't be removed. I have uploaded a sample picture on the A-Ring page. I am taking pictures with a Canon EOS Digital Rebel XSi from a LCD television running at 1920x1080 resolution. I downsized the image from 4272x2848 using super sampling to a fixed-aspect ratio with a width of 350 px. If the image is not satisfactory then feel free to remove the image and I will see what I can contribute elsewhere. --ArmeniusLOD 08:46, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I just noticed if I do this I need to turn the Brightness setting in my game back down to normal . --ArmeniusLOD 08:57, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, all help is appreciated. The problem with images taken on console however is that they'll never have the same quality as ones taken on a PC, for the simple reason that an image generated directly by the game engine is always of better quality than a photograph of the screen. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:19, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Bethesda Ruins
I'm not sure how active I intend to be, so I haven't added myself to the project, but if a more senior editor could look over the adjustments I made to Bethesda Ruins page and let me know if I'm on the right track before I change any other pages, I'd appreciate it. I know the content isn't great, but I'm focusing on formatting first, so the content isn't mine.

Also, why not merge the underworks article with that one? There's not a ton of information about the underworks, nor is that area terribly relevant to anyone except people hunting books, who will be getting the books from the rest of the ruins anyway. Cheers. Comradephate 06:30, October 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'd agree with merging the articles. I don't know why they were split in the first place. -- Porter21 (talk) 15:05, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Peer review
Peer reviews should not be done by anyone who completed other tasks for the respective article. Their whole purpose is having someone else check the article for things which may have overlooked; someone else is far more likely to spot these things than the ones who completed the tasks.

In addition, please actually review the article and do not simply mark it as completed. I've noticed various articles which were marked as peer-reviewed but still had obvious issues (wrong section naming, wrong section order, bugs not specific to the location etc). -- Porter21 (talk) 15:03, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Referenced Maps
I'm a sporadic editor at best, so I havent joined the project, but I've been cleaning up a lot of the notable loot sections, in line with the Help:Notable loot guidelines. I've got a question about something though. A few of the articles have maps with references added that are mentioned in the articles. So the map will have A, B, C and so on and occasionally the only time these references are used in the article is in the notable loot section. The references often point to non-notable loot, so what should I do if I come across one of these? I can't update the map unfortunately, so I've currently been leaving the non-notable loot in there so the map doesn't have unused references. Ishotamaninnewreno 15:03, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Notable Loot Discussion
Just wnated to discuss what is considered Notable Loot a bit. I have seen the list that is being used as policy, but I wnated to get some more opinions on what and what shouldn't be listed ever, or about expanding the list a bit more. I'm of the opinion that there is a lot more "Notable Loot" than what the policy states.

I think that listing things that are always in a location that are usable like weapons, ammo, and custom weapon parts is actually notable loot (Only exception I would say is Tin Cans). It seems many do not agree with this as I see it get deleted continually saying it is not notable loot. If someone chooses to document this stuff I think it is actually a benefit to players. The stuff I mean are things that are "usable" though. Not talking aobut clip boards, or coffee mugs, but if there is a .32 Calibur Pistol there all the time and someone wants to list it, I think it should stay in the list of stuff in the area. If they want to tell you that there are couple Sensor Modules there it should stay as those aren't exactly incredibly common, and are very useful for the scematic of a weapon a lot of us like to use.

While there are quite a few quest items for things such as the Moonshine, Yeast, etc. in Point Lookout, I am not for listing them in every place they are. I guess if you can get 75% of the ones needed in one area it is relevant though. What do you guys think?Jimimorrison 23:14, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I think it's fine as it is. If you list too much half-relevant loot it simply drowns out the actually interesting stuff and the loot sections make up half of the article (or more). Keeping the signal-to-noise-ratio high is very important for a wiki. The guideline provides for cases in which a noticable amount of otherwise non-notable loot is in one location, and that's enough in my opinion. -- Porter21 (talk) 23:32, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't think there's any harm in listing all weapons and other usable items. How about using collapsible boxes like at West Tek Research Facility? This way the "non-notable" loot wouldn't clutter the page too much. Ausir(talk) 13:26, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Common House (Big Town)
I've deleted this page twice. First time, it was because the content was actually covered on the Big Town page. But now I realize that Big Town's page lists a link to Common House (Big Town) instead of any actual description.

I thought the consensus had been not to create separate articles for minor sublocations in towns. Any input from the project participants on this question? Thanks.--Gothemasticator 19:53, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would delete the page and expound on it in the main article. --Kingclyde 07:44, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Anchorage Reclamation Simulation
Can we get this off the list? It is not an actual location and covers several different areas. It also lands in an area where several criteria are not valid. I would recommend breaking it up into individual locations such as the Ice Camp and the Mining Town.Vault 815 23:25, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't really see much use in breaking the article up. Due to O:A's very linear structure, there'd simply be too much overlap with the quest pages if we were to describe the locations in detail. Would be interesting to hear other opinions though. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:04, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Just Made Final adjustments to the page, can you peer review? It is ok as it is but it is a little long with all the under locations on it. PS: Did you ever get around to making that done tab?Vault 815 15:41, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Can anyone peer review the Anchorage Reclamation Simulation?Vault 815 15:59, May 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I reviewed it. Not sure what you're referring to with "done tab", could you elaborate? -- Porter21 (talk) 16:08, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Enemies
The majority of Fallout 3 locations have enemies in them. There used to be many locations pages listing the enemies. Don't you think it should be added tot the standard Fallout 3 locations project layout? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bib-lost (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * The type of enemies in a location should be mentioned in the lead sentence. More detailed descriptions are of little use since the majority of enemies are leveled, and their number/equipment varies depending on player level. -- Porter21 (talk) 09:04, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget the faction tab in the info box, most of them have been falsely removed so just add it back in.Vault 815 15:43, April 25, 2010 (UTC)