Talk:Divergence/Archive 1

May be it could be more objective to didvide in this article Fallout Bible quotation/reference and author's er.. speculations/non-canon ideas?--dotz 18:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I deleted this comment at the end of the article:

"-There was a nuclear winter, thats why they stayed in the sealed vaults for many decades -And even in fallout, radiation still kills, it just happens to also mutate a few."

You should either correct the original article or point out errors here in discussion. It did bring up some issues though.

The original article stated that radiation in the fallout universe does not kill, but only produces mutations. Anyone whos stayed in the glow too long and then taken a trip through the wasteland knows this isnt true however, so I changed it saying that radiation occasionally causes mutations instead of death. The fallout bible(most of which I don't think the fallout community considers canon) says that radiation was not the cause of any mutations, but that FEV was responsible for them all, with radiation only affecting the mutation of ghouls in combination with FEV.

What's the consensus on the cause of mutation? I've always prefered radiation for everything but supermutants and the masters pets, which would be in keeping with the setting.

As for the comment on there having been a nuclear winter, I don't remember hearing or reading anything in fallout 1 or 2 confirming this, I always assumed the vault dwellers were taking shelter from fallout, as scientists at the time had no idea how long it would last.

Just a note on radiation.
It depends on the dose. Someone who's been to the Glow and hung around for an hour or two gets such a high does it kills them (as per the 'You've received a high dose of radiation' messages). Other areas have radiation only not in such large doses as the Glow so while you might get a bit sick, it won't kill you.

The differences in dosage create different affects.

Now, did radiation cause Ghouls? My opinion is yes. It's the classic 50's "radiation = mutants" theory. FEV creates your larger super-mutants and the centaurs and things. Straight out radiation in "the right amount" would cause a Ghoul. Perhaps received in different ways - IE: radiated drinking water vs radiation in the atmosphere.

That said, we know Harold likely received some radiation as well as exposure to FEV (on a small scale). Is Harold a Ghoul or a mutant? This is theory 2. Radiation + FEV in the right amounts = Ghouls.

what about Moira Brown she becomes a ghoul when the lone wonderer activates the un-exploded atomic bomb in Megaton this suggests that the heat and resultant radiation of an atomic bomb are the cause of ghoulifcation, there is no suggestion that Moyra is exposed to a FEV.
 * At this point I'd say it's pretty clear that Ghoulism is caused by radiation alone. (Or at least it's a pretty safe bet with the fact that Carol was Ghoulified without any obvious exposure to FEV (The closest FEV facility being sealed still at that time.)) But it's still all speculation. As for Harold, as evidenced by his appearance in Fallout 3, Harold is special. ;) (Hey, he and Bob finally got FEV to affect plant cells! Now those suckers are super charged and will grow anywhere!) ABCoLD 21:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I am sure i read somewhere that when the vats were broken open in mariposa, this released FEV into the atmosphere, meaning everything everywhere has a small dose of FEV and a latent infection. It could be a combination of this small amount of FEV mutated by radiation which causes growth of ants, mutations into molerats, and ghouls etc. After all, Dr Lekso in "Those" was making ants breathe fire simply by playing with their genetics via research into FEV, he had never gotten hold of any pure samples of FEV to play with only that latent in the environment and the ants, so this is very likely (and i believe sourceable in the fallout bible). Braindigitalis 01:21, April 4, 2010 (UTC) I want to go back to your topic does radiation cause ghoulsyes but interestingly the 1971 Charlton Heston film The Omega man had Ghouls known as the faamily but there ghoulification wasn't caused by radiation but chemical weapons another film with ghoulls in was Neon City there ghoulification is caused by solar activity Owen1983 22:45, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Space Race
" In the Fallout world, the Space Race of the 1960s never occurred." It would be good to have some proof from the game to back up statements like this?

Exactly. This forms the base for a lot of discussion about what is "Fallout-y" or not. In the Great War discussion page, it's said that all the bombs were dropped by planes. That's about all the details we get from the higher ups on that note. But, seeing as this is contridicted in both Fallout 2 and VB, can't we at least assume that rocket technology was at least touched upon? Not everything in Fallout has to be put inside this 50's sci-fi context to make it a unique universe.

They're right, y'know. In the original design of Fallout 1 you were supposed to reach the Master's Base with a Flash Gordon-esque rocket, as per Tim Cain's design. Not to mention that WW-II technological development included the start of rocket technology, so it makes no sense to kill it from a 50's-perspective. Kharn

I thought WW2 never happened in the Fallout universe?Dan 09:06, 5 Aug 2005 (CEST)

It did happen. The divergence occured after WW2. Ausir 12:07, 5 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Changed it a bit and erased all the "lack of rockets and space exploration" thing. Ausir 21:06, 7 Aug 2005 (CEST)

In fallout 3, the Museum of Technology puts this one to rest, as it contains a replica of the rocket used and their lunar lander. There was a moon landing (in the 2030's, if I remember right) and a space race, but the delay in science caused by the absence of the semiconductor microchip pushed the date back significantly.-Scorpion0451 20:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

with regards to rockets, is it fair to say that modern real-world nuclear ICBM's (with MIRV'ed multiple warheads, extreme accuracy due to various innovations made possible by integrated circuits, and moderate warhead payload in the range of hundreds of kilotons) were never developed? we know that it's likely most of the bombs were delivered by bombers, and we know that space vehicles were converted into ICBMs with very, very large warheads (more along the lines of Tsar Bomba). But in the games, destruction seems to be light-moderate (supporting the idea that bombers dropped lower-intensity bombs closer to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which may have allowed D.C. to escape the total vaporization it would suffer in mid-Cold War or onward real-world nuclear strikes) or total (something like the Glow remnant of L.A., which could have been blasted by a few space vehicle ICBMs), but nothing in-between.

on the other hand, both semi-canon Van Buren and the official Fallout 3 have orbital strike platforms that can drop weapons ranging from multiple Mini-Nukes or Football Nuke equivalents to full scale city-destroying nuclear warheads, giving MIRV-like capabilities to the world powers. Maybe that's how the nuclear powers gave themselves MIRV-like destructivity in the Fallout universe. --24.231.157.130 02:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Bombs dropped by planes
I question the "most of the nuclear weapons delivered in the Great War were bombs dropped by planes." line. As to why, see my explanation in the discussion page of the Great War thread.

In fort Constantine in Fallout 3 there is a computer which has the command "launch ICBM" obviously showing there was nuclear missles

Well, that may be true; but remember, Fort Constantine also has a bomb storage building. I personally think that most countries used planes. We don't know for sure.... -MerchantofDeath 09:59, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

About Arms & Equipment
I don't see any reason why non-fictional post-WWII firearms should have been avoided in the series, other than to prevent legal issues surrounding product names (as was the case with Counter-Strike). Practically every video game that has featured non-fictional firearms portrays them incorrectly to some degree in order to maintain game balance, and firearms experts will eternally debate the performance of any weapon amongst themselves. Also, finding WWII (or earlier) weapons is not necessarily an unlikely event; the Tommy Gun and the M3A1 "Grease Gun" SMG are widely used in Fallout 2. The M3A1's description mentions that they are "simple and cheap to manufacture so there are still quite a few still in use." White Agent 21:29, 5 April 2006 (CEST)


 * The reason is the divergence - around the 1950s, the Fallout world diverged from ours - just read the whole article. And anyway, when talking about canon, Fallout 1 takes precedence, and there, there were very few such weapons. Ausir 19:54, 6 April 2006 (CEST)


 * But there is no reason why everything that happened post-divergence in the real world should not have happened in the Fallout universe. Arms manufacturers such as Winchester and H&K simply continued to exist post-divergence and made both "divergent" (10mm SMG) and "real" (H&K G11) weapons. I understand the concern that they're probably the only thing that survived post-divergence (aside from any easter eggs), but I don't see how their existance in the Fallout universe is so horribly wrong as the author of the article portrays them. White Agent 20:53, 6 April 2006 (CEST)


 * Hi, new user, no account yet. I read the article today reacting in the same way White Agent above has done, so I came here to voice my support for the opinion that a historical divergence does not automatically imply that EVERYTHING after divergence need be fundamentally different from our world. It might simply affect, for example, the prevalence of four-leaved clovers... / Per 195.67.20.5
 * Well, it's not only about how a divergence would work logically in a plausible alternate timeline, it's about how people in the 1950s imagined the future. Ausir 11:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

New problem is, that in van Buren 9mm firearms are present and eg. 9mm autoloader is generic. It was explained by some dev (Sawyer?) with some regional (southwest) specific. Anyway - 10mm arms do not rule. --dotz 21:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And some Chris taylor statement at NMA interview Jan 18 2008:

The gun choices in FO1 were 90% mine. I felt that weapon technology would have developed differently in the Fallout universe after the split with our timeline, so I tried to make less of the weapons "real-world". The two exceptions (that I can remember) are the Desert Eagle .44 and the 9mm Mauser. The DE was my favorite gun at the time and I had to include it. The 9mm Mauser is an older weapon that I think has a very cool, unique look to it.

Others, like the .223 and the 10mm guns, were based on real-world weapons. (There are guys out there that make pistols that shoot rifle cartridges, like the .223. I applaud their insanity. ^_^)

The 14mm is pure speculation.

And the energy weapons are just plain out fantasy.

My only regret is not including a Colt .45. It fits in the same category as the Mauser. I think it was a question of trying to keep the number of ammo types down.

Nowadays, it's a more interesting question of what weapons to include because more manufacturers pay attention to how their products are used in computer and video games. You might (erm, probably) have to get permission from Glock, for example, to use their likenesses and marks in a game.

I'm killing that whole first paragraph. Unless someone can factually state a reference where either Black Isle or Bethesda said NO REAL WORLD WEAPONS then it's entirely inaccurate. "Divergence" doesn't mean complete removal.

...Just a quick note here on the use of glass metal etc instead of polymers. Polymers and plastics at least in this universe require the use of petroliums and oils to be produced. This would not be possible in a major resource shortage (as happened in the fallout universe) so falling back to reusable, recyclable materials such as glass and alumunium would be the way to go, plastics being in very short supply, no need to even consider 'cutting corners' if the materials simply are not available. 82.20.209.63 18:56, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

from --24.231.157.130 03:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the stuff on weapons divergence just plain does not make sense from a gun nut's perspective.

there is some vagueness in the description that can allow for some wiggle room, but many of the "new" ammo types used were introduced in the real world well after The Divergence.

Real-world ammo is described by both it's caliber and length (for example, pre-Divergence 7.62x54mm Russian rifle ammunition used in the Mosin-Nagant), whereas most of the Fallout world ammo is simply described by it's caliber. So, you can argue these calibers are "Fallout calibers" that are simply similar to real world ones, but may have been invented in completely different circumstances.

But, if we're going to make the assumption that ammo of a popular caliber in Fallout is the same as real-world ammo....

.308 Winchester/7.62mmx51 NATO weren't invented until the late 50's when NATO was looking for a common caliber for battle rifle ammunition. It's development was substantially informed by US war experience in Korea.

similarly, 5.56mmx45/.223 Remington was developed in the early 60's and it's final form was substantially affected by early use in Vietnam by US advisers and South Vietnamese troops.

the .44 Magnum was similarly developed in the mid-50's from the .44 Special cartridge... and the .44 cartridges used in lever action rifles were very different and wouldn't fit a "Lincoln's Carbine" or Point Outlook Repeating Rifle without extensive modifications to the rifle.

finally, the 10mm Auto wasn't developed until the early 1980's in the real world - MUCH, much later that most material included from after the Divergence is.

some people complain about the .32 Hunting Rifle/.32 Pistol combo, since normally one shoots a very powerful rifle-caliber round and the other shoots a round designed for small concealed pistols, but simple caliber conversion kits are available and fairly popular, so we can simply assume it's using the anemic pistol caliber in both :P

also, while ideas like remanufacturing FN FAL's as a standard arm for NCR could make sense in real world terms, some of the remanufacturing ideas are fairly silly - the Tommy Gun had a reputation of being a very complicated gun that took extensive resources to make even during the time of WWII, and alternatives like the Grease Gun and Sten gun were quickly deployed due to the amount of resources and time it took to equip troops with the Thompson. they should just admit they included it so the player can tote it around areas like New Reno and look like a gangster :P

if they're going to allow calibers from the 50's and early 60's, though, then I'd like to see a return of some of the heavy weapons from FO2 and FO:T. The M60 is heavily influenced by the WW2 German MG43 so creating a fictional version is perfectly plausible. Recent research has shown that US troops hacked up heavy machine guns into .50 cal BMG sniper rifles as early as Korea (Russian and German troops were using similar calibers for countersniper work even during WWII), so the original idea for the Bozar (as a Barrett Light Fifty clone) could be used if the weapon was fictionalized and make to look more like a product of the World Of Tomorrow. And the M2 Browning has been around since the end of WW2, so there's no Divergence reason not to include it.

if Bethesda or Obsidian really decides to make things awesome, they could include WWII-era antitank rifles that fired explosive shells like the Lahti 20mm, or early 60's grenade launchers like US 40mm kinds. The antitank rifles should be limited to the extremely strong, of course, but it's time they gave some awesome rewards to the Big Guns oriented players for a change :P --24.231.157.130 03:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

No nuclear winter?
How so, if the Fallout Bible clearly says (answering the question about "How people outside the vaults survived the bombs")

Some areas of the world were not hit by nukes, and even though many cities promptly went to hell out of starvation and rioting (New Reno), there were still plenty of cubbyholes and old shelters for people to eke out an existence. Survivalists and some isolated military units in Power Armor (and other equipment) also were able to hole up and survive  the Nuclear Winter that followed.

Whole this article is a bunch of non-supported theories (as in case with weapons or rockets), not a well developed wiki-style article. Please, guys, make more research before writing stuff here.


 * That's Fallout Bible 5. In Fallout Bible 6 Chris Avellone said he was wrong and there was no Nuclear Winter in Fallout. Ausir 15:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Some in-game texts mention nuclear winter, such as the vault dweller's survival guide.-accountless avenger

current real-world theories are showing that the "nuclear winter" concern of the 1980's was likely overblown. even during that time period, a full-scale nuclear exchange would have provoked a relative mild nuclear winter compared to the extra-nightmarish scenarios that were put out at the time. There's currently questioning going around as to whether some of the more politically active scientists in nuclear disarmament movements (like Carl Sagan) that spoke on behalf of the theory already knew that contemporary portrayal were a lie but promoted it anyway in an attempt to "do good". --24.231.157.130 03:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Vacuum Tubes
I believe it is our future, but our culture reverted to the popular style of the fifties with the development of a much more efficient vacuum tube (quantum vac-tube?) that outperformed the modern transistor.

wasnt really sure were to put this but the vacumm tubes heading seemed correct so here its is,I was reading this article and then i read the combat armour article and it said the combat helmets could incorporate laser/pathfinder systems and i dont they could incorporate such systems because the vacuum tubes would have to be pretty small so there might be something wrong here but dont get angry with me if i have made a mistake just an observation is all:)Jhonteay 20:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

the Vacuum Tube theory as part of the Divergence just really doesn't make sense to anyone with electrical engineering knowledge, but I think it's one of the areas in Fallout fiction where you have to just bite the bullet and have a forced suspension of disbelief.--24.231.157.130 03:20, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikify please
For fuck's sake. This reads like some kind of a forum post. ---
 * Could you please give some more directed goals on how the article and be “wikified”? --Lodley 22:37, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Political Flipping
(Also posted in soviet union, reposted here for added exposure)

It seems the USSR and China have switched roles in the Fallout universe. The USSR seems to have become a "commerce with all, alliance with none" (as John Henry Eden likes to put it) nation, and China is a super-communist menace. Perhaps this may show divergence DURING world war two or even before it, perhaps with Trotsky taking Stalin's place in the USSR which would make a more politically free and civilly free soviet union. Mao's china would seem to be the greater of two communist evils in a Mccarthyist (or similar anti-communist) 1950's America while the USSR will seem a "Nessicary but evil" trading partner like China was for most of the cold war. On a related note, the US seems to be more isolationist then it's 1950's counterpart, it's possible that they never entered WW2 in the first place, it may have ended in a nuclear exchange before they entered the war making Europe in a much weaker state for the century to come.-Accountless Avenger
 * World War 2 definitely did happen in the Fallout world as it did in ours. One of the games directly mentions Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Chris Avellone also said that it was some time after WW2. Ausir 19:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Physics
I think it's incorrect to say the effects of a nuclear bomb are necessarily different in the Fallout Universe than in our own. Nuclear bombs do not always create craters. Hasn't anyone ever heard of an air burst?

Especially in a city like Washington, which is mostly stone, brick, and steel, quite a bit of the city would remain even after a nuclear attack, assuming an air burst (there was no crater for Nagasaki or Hiroshima - both air bursts - and the few stone structures in those cities remained more or less intact.) Typically, the tactics for a nuclear weapon deployment (on both sides of the line during the cold war) would call for an air burst, not a ground burst. There aren't any really significant hard targets in D.C. so any intelligent attacker would use an air burst to maximize both casualties and coverage.

As for Ghouls, and radiation, while it is unlikely that such a mutation would occur, it is impossible to say for sure that it wouldn't. After all, we've never had a sample size in the millions on which to study the aftermath of a nuclear attack on a large (millions) city.

Finally, nuclear winter has largely been debunked as a realistic theory, so that's one more area where the Fallout does NOT diverge in regards to the laws of Physics. Arkannis 08:06, 1 JAN 2009 (MST)

It is entirely possible that all that is different is sturdier biology, leading to large scale mutation rather than cancer or death. As for nuclear winter, it has never been conclusively debunked or proved. - A young random wanderer

the problem is that D.C. is logically first or almost first on the list of targets to hit for a nuclear-armed enemy of the US, whether you are in Fallout Universe or the Real Universe. The Chinese would probably dump a few waves of bombers carrying a whole mess of bombs onto the area and plaster it good, and they would probably be carrying enough bombs to not have a problem with choosing both airburst AND ground-fuzed weapons. Before nuclear arms control treaties like the START series got signed, both the Russians and the US in the Real World were known to budget dozens or even 100+ or more ICBM warheads for particularly important targets like the surrounding area and city proper of Denver or St. Petersburg, and those numbers went up even more for critical targets like D.C. or Moscow that had some form of anti-ballistic missile defense to ensure they could properly saturate the area even in the face of interference.

even if you assume the bombers were toting Hiroshima and Nagasaki few dozen kiloton-level bombs, D.C. should be flattened like a pancake from hundreds of A-bombs... but traveling through a D.C. flattened into The Glow 2.0 isn't nearly as interesting as one where the monuments are nearly busted but still standing :P --24.231.157.130 04:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

RE: "DC is logically first or almost first on the list of targets..." - that depends on how well the targeteers have followed game theory and/or the political objectives of the war. If you want to have any chance of a negotiated peace, the one thing you don't do is decapitate the enemy - you have to have someone to negotiate WITH. This is one of the major reasons the first two atomic bombs were NOT dropped on Tokyo during WWII. The allies wanted the leadership, and specifically the emporer, to survive the war to assist in post-war rebuilding. So it doesn't follow that just because the US was in a war, even a nuclear war, that Washington D.C. would be glassed.
 * What makes you think China wanted to negotiate? They were losing the war and going nuclear was a complete last resort. As such, you *do* want to decapitate leadership. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 07:56, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

Civil Rights
Something that's always bothered me about the Fallout universe is that it's never addressed segregation. I realize that their world isn't an exact split, or alternate history, but the issue of racial quality is still something that every culture has had to deal with, especially the 1950's "Golden Era" of the USA. There's a pretty big hole from 1955 to 1968, but because the culture seems to stagnate right there, I assume that the civil rights movement never happened. So, how is equality explained in Fallout? Clearly racism exists, ghouls are discriminated against and sexism is alive and well. Fallout doesn't address homosexuality as well, even though in our time line, McCarthyism tied homosexuality to communism as one of the "roots of evil".

If anything, the "Red Scare" that exists in the fallout universe would cause further discrimination, but everyone seems pretty PC in the future.

Is there any information in Fallout Bible regarding Civil Rights? --Nux Matrix 05:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that the writers deliberately avoided that subject. It isn't important to the game anyway.


 * I think that all discrimination was shortly forgotten after the bombs fell due to the fact that all people worked together to survive.--User:S Berger

yeah, I mean, in the aftermath of nuclear war people are just trying to survive, and don't really care about ancestral predjudice. --someone

I've always got the impression that women and minorities had civil rights well before the bombs fell, just not on our timescales or in the manner that it happened in the Real World. you probably had something like the early 60's Civil Rights movement and a feminist movement that were less radical in nature and took longer to accomplish their goals. More "I Have A Dream" and "Rosie the Riveter" (remember the Nuka Break sign?), less bra-immolation or chants of "Burn, Baby, Burn". Fallout presents a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that both blacks and women had more or less equal rights legally by the times the bombs fell, so I don't think that the "Alas, Babylon" theory where everyone abandoned discrimination after the war is correct. There are hints that women still faced a fair degree of 50's-style chauvinism at work even after obtaining legal equality, though.

wisely, the various Fallout teams don't spend too much time on this sort of thing. no matter how you hash out these kinds of issues, someone is going to be offended, and for the most part it doesn't help the storytelling they're trying to do.--24.231.157.130 03:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Earlier differences
In Fallout 3 there is a recording of Lincoln's voice, when in our world the phonograph and wax cylinders weren't invented until 1877, and Lincoln was assassinated in 1865. Minor variations between Fallout's world and ours, or just a discrepancy? -DocGratis- 75.148.199.242 19:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably just an error on the part of the devs. Ausir 19:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This might be early evidence of Bethesda's own take on the Fallout universe also considering their use of the Cowpens flag. But at this point it's completely speculation. ABCoLD 11:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Mutation
Ghoul and mutant beats of anykind is result of F.E.V. As Mentiond in F 1-2. A-Bom 's just spred the Virus which as not intented. So If there is mutation in europa or asia it is because of the spread of F.E.V. . PS. F.E.V. Was an experiment at first to stop harmfull effects of Rad. Before Radaway or radx —Preceding. Please sign your posts with ~ !
 * Moved from Special:ProblemReports/18726. // Porter21 U 15:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The source of ghoul and animal mutation is something that even the creators of Fallout do not agree on. Some of them say it's radiation, some say it's FEV, some say that it's the mix of both. Ausir 15:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Real Life Scenario
This section has nothing to do with the Fallout Universe. While interesting this information should be left on Wikipedia or other sites that deal with information that is not Fallout related. So I'm going to delete it. If anyone likes they can feel free to revert and explain the merit of it's inclusion here. ;) ABCoLD 11:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Real Life Scenario
This section includes vital information that is useful in comparing the Fallout Universe to the Real World today.

S Berger 20:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)S Berger


 * No, it is a work of fiction with no substantiation in fact that is not particularly relevant. None of the information is "vital." Any useful information should be refined and only included if it is directly relevant to the article. Duncanxxxx 20:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not a work of fiction. It is a possible scenario that could occur in the world we live in today. The information is based off US government documents that have been declassified and were published during the Cold War. It is relevant by showing the differences and similarities to the Fallout world.S Berger 23:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pointless to include that. That Furry Bastard 00:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No its not. It gives some insight on the differences and similarities of our world to the fallout world S Berger 01:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The section of scenario should be shown it could help other peoples of placesNativeAfrican 01:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not required, it's idle speculation and is not bcked up by facts. We aren't a fanfiction wiki. That Furry Bastard 09:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is supported by facts. It is supported from declassified government fallout prediction patterns and target values. S Berger 18:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The onus is on you to show relevance. You haven't done that. Still waiting. Duncanxxxx 19:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It shows differences and similarities between our world and the fallout worldS Berger 20:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't. It's just a fictional scenario (still fiction, even if based on declassified docs). You're not showing any comparisons and certainly no comparisons that weren't already addressed. Pare it down. Make direct comparisons. Make it relevant to divergence. Duncanxxxx 21:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

50 Foot Woman
Just a quick note for anyone who wants to fix it, the Fifty Foot Woman was transformed by aliens, not a nuclear accident. A better reference is The Amazing Colossal Man, who *was* the result of a freak nuclear accident.

Has it occured to anybody else how completely awesome this would be in game?

Davy Crockett
The Davy Crockett is just a nuclear projectile. The round was fired from either an M28 or M29 recoiless rifle. Also, according to the wikipedia article, the weapon was actually deployed from 1961 to 1971 (although, obviously never used, since Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the only two uses of nuclear weapons for non-testing purposes in history), not merely scrapped after testing.Fiddlesoup 05:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Physics
1. I changed this section to read "Science behaves like it was popularly portrayed in 50's fiction.". In our reality we knew "radiation == bad" before we had the bomb. Products like 'Nuka Cola Quantum' did exist, but not past the early 1930's, because by then we (that is, the public, not just scientists) figured out eating radium killed us. So claiming the fallout universe acts in ways that was "popularly believed" is just wrong and the Nuka Cola reference was two decades to late.

2. 'lift and kick' and 'appealing lavender glow' is a quote from the game is it not? If so, we should quote it properly.

3. The claim that nuclear winter 'likely' never occurred isn't supported by the evidence. Just because something wasn't thought of until (real) 1970 doesn't mean it can't occur. It just means it might not have occurred. It can still occur if:


 * The different physical laws government both realities result in the same event from the same cause.
 * The events are governed by laws that are identical in both realities.

Both of these cases are likely because the realities are far more similar than dissimilar. I.e, despite the wide divergence the differences have made in tech and biology, reality as a whole is largely the same between the realities.

So, given:


 * The physical effects of nuclear explosions (other than radiation effects) are seemingly identical in both universes.
 * Nuclear winter is not a function of radiation, but of the concussive forces which generate and scatter debris.

It seems more likely than not that nuclear winter is possible (and therefore, likely to have occurred) in the fallout universe.

Of course, the real danger is extrapolating anything from these events at all. This is a work of fiction and the true reality is that the physics work however their creaters want them to work.

If someone wants to make a case the other way, fine, but otherwise I think we should remove that particular blurb and replace it with a better example - preferably one that can be made without weasel words like 'likely'. An example of why something occurred the way it was actually portrayed in the game is probably better than speculation about what may or may not have occurred in a dynamic fictional universe.
 * According to Chris Avellone in the Fallout Bible, there was no nuclear winter. Nor is there any hint in the games nor the timeline that there was one. Ausir 09:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Only Great Winter is the one in 2130, 43 years after the Great War. That Furry Bastard 10:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I propose we cite the Fallout Bible as evidence if we want to include the lack of nuclear winter. Divergent physics as a possible rationalization for a known quantity makes some sense.


 * Otherwise, let's lose it. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence - a nuclear winter could have occurred and yet show no evidence within the games. Using divergence to suggest a hypothetical scenario - as the article does in fact, if not intent - is fan fiction and makes no sense as an example of divergent physics - there are probably more fitting examples that aren't speculative.


 * I'm more than happy to do this if there are no objections. Duncanxxxx 14:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll add a ref to the Fallout Bible installment it's mentioned in. Ausir 15:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A lack of living trees in fallout 3 could be shown as evidence of a nuclear winter. Stopping photosynthesis would cause the trees to die like this, as seen in Chernobyl radiation does not outright kill trees for the most part. If you look closely at the landscape smaller plant life is still alive (thick tough grasses etc) so the player wouldnt be dead of suffocation! Braindigitalis 12:30, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

chernobyl
Did this ever happen in the Fallout Universe? It could mean why Nuclear power was used so extensively. Fat Man Spoon 23:11, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Why was Oil important?
With the obvious problems of trying to explain why a world with functioning Fission Batteries and Microfusion Cells decided to blow itself up over the loss of oil, one of the things I hope Bethesda and Obsidian will play up is how much oil is used outside of the energy sector. Petroleum derivatives are huge in chemical processes and engineering, and oil is used in the Faber process to create artificial fertilizer, which is critical to keeping people fed these days. Without modern biotech to engineer up chemical or bioprocess alternatives like we're presently trying to do in the Real World, having your supply of oil cut off would have very very serious implications for your industrial and agricultural infrastructure - and give the Chinese the same excuses to have a massive war with the US that the Japanese had. And we've never had a indication that the world of Fallout was particularly skilled at biotech in the ways it's skilled with energy weapons and nuclear reactors, FEV aside. --24.231.157.130 04:05, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to maybe explain that with this article Oil_in_the_World_of_Fallout --Lodley 02:13, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Randian Bust
What exactly is a "Randian Bust"? I've been looking around and the only things I get are references to Ayn Rand. I think we should actually find out whatever those giant faces sticking out of the walls are actually called. Dirk Gently 06:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I was curious about that too. Can someone look up in the history who made that statement? Also, are there real world equivalents to these busts? - Redmess 22:05, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Cause of Divergence
Just something I've been wondering for a while, but is it possible the divergence was caused due to the same reason the Church in Megaton worships the bomb: because nuclear explosions create multiple new universes? Could the bombs dropped in WWII or any of the bombs tested anytime since then have been the possible cause off the Divergence?


 * Maybe, maybe not. Its total speculation. It would for example require the univers to be of exactly that kind which produces alternate universes on events. If this is taken true, there would have to be a reasonable theory of why the bombs specifically should have caused this divergence (seeing as a nuke going off is totally insignificant on any scale other than planetary). - Redmess 22:10, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

Fallout Tactics and Fallout: BOS
Both of these games strongly defy the Fallout world. I don't play either of them much, but Doesn't Fallout: BOS have hard core metal music that shouldn't even exist?


 * 1. It was my understanding that tactics and BOS were both considered un-cannon(confirm/deny)?
 * 2. The worlds are diverged somewhere around the 1950’s, so there should not be any of (our) heavy metal. That does not mean that something similar to heavy metal was not developed at some point. The current(2077) art design and music taste, that harkens back to the 1950’s, could be a more recent fad. For example heavy metal could have been popular in the 2020’s, before there was a “retro” feel to everything.
 * 3. Being strategy games, I haven’t actually played them yet, don’t you take the kind of “sky god” command of everything. So the music might just be for your benefit and not actually in world (again haven’t actually played).
 * --Lodley 22:14, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Link To The Page
Do we really need to link the Divergence page to same page? The "World Of Tomorrow" link brings you right back to Divergence. It doesn't really seem practical to me... JimmyBassatti 15:53, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Point of Divergence
I believe the Point of Divergence (PoD) came much earlier than "just after WW2". AFAIK all we have to support that idea is a one-line remark by Chris Avellone seven years ago. I've seen no other evidence else to support this idea. My theory is the PoD occurred sometime between 1847 (the birth of Thomas Edison) and 1885 and that the PoD centered around Nikolas Tesla.

Real World History
Tesla arrived in the US in 1884 with nothing to his name except a glowing letter of recommendation addressed to Thomas Edison who promptly hired him. After proving himself to be a genuine genius Tesla was asked by Edison to improve his company's Direct Current electrical system and was promised $50,000 if he delivered. Tesla worked night and day for a year, earning Edison several patents along the way, and redesigned the company's DC system making radical improvements. When he approached Edison for his promised payment the American laughed in his face refused to pay up and even denied Tesla a paltry $7 per week pay rise. Understandably angry, Tesla resigned and wound up as a manual labourer digging ditches for, ironically enough, the Edison Company.

This is where it gets interesting. It was during this time that Tesla developed the principals for his own Alternating Current system which he took to George Westinghouse, a direct competitor to Edison. It was the start of a long and bitter rivalry between Tesla and Edison. The latter proved to be the more ruthless business man who spent the rest of his life discrediting Tesla and his work. Tesla was as great an altruist as he was a scientist, he developed methods of generating vast amounts of clean limitless energy and transferring it across long distances for no cost. The American business community balked at the idea of not being able to wring as much money as possible from the people and with Edisons help made sure that Tesla was blacklisted from both the scientific mainstream and any significant finance resources.

Long story short, Tesla died alone and penniless in a New York hotel on January 7th 1943, the same day he'd demonstrated the principles of his Teleforce "death ray" to the US War Dept. Despite being officially discredited by both the private and public sectors, the War Dept. with the assitance of the FBI immediately, and illegally, seized all of Tesla's notes and materials, declared them top secret and have suppressed them ever since. It is only recently that Tesla's work and genius has started to receive the mainstream recognition he was denied during his life.

Tesla made pivotal contributions in the fields of robotics, atomic and nuclear theory, electrical generation and distribution as well as computer science.

Fallout History
Tesla has much more populist recognition, he made a much bigger impact in Fallout than he did in our world. His name is attached to many more devices and principles. For all intents and purposes he was the Edison of Fallout. Edison himself doesn't get a single mention.

We know that Fallout enjoyed a prolonged period of cheap and safe electrical energy. This was Tesla's goal.

The PoD
Something happened that resulted in Tesla 'not' being discredited by the American business and scientific communities. His "War of the Currents" with Edison simply never happened and his place in Fallout history was much more prominent than in ours. Given Edison's complete lack of recognition in Fallout (Lincoln died 12 years before Edison invented his phonograph so "Lincoln's Voice" has no bearing) it's most likely that he never rose to the level of prominence he enjoyed in our world.

So... Tesla went to the US anyway and hooked up with someone else, possibly Westinghouse. A less embittered Tesla might well have been amenable to a compromise on the issues of cheap / free energy. With Tesla's work having more mainstream acceptance, bearing in mind his work in the fields of robotics and computer science, he would've progressed further along these lines.

Conclusion
It's altogether probable that Tesla's work in the Fallout universe led to the world we see on our screens today. —Preceding. Please sign your posts with ~ !


 * Interesting theory, but it is 99% speculation and assumptions based on circumastantial evidence, whereas Chris Avellone's statement is, well, a statement directly from the developer. Nice read, but the PoD is still somewhere around 1950s.
 * Do consider that the world of Fallout did not enjoy a period of free and cheap energy. Sure, micro fusion cells were cheap and plentiful, but only for the rich who could afford a fusion car. Also, maybe Tesla's technology was rediscovered somewhere after 1950s, hmmm? http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 15:51, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not just Avellone. Bethesda has also stated that the divergence happened after WW2. And, according to J.E. Sawyer, all the stuff like Tesla Armor was based on Tesla's designs confiscacted by the US government after his death. Ausir(talk) 16:52, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm new to wikis so apologies if I'm breaking any protocol here.
 * I admit I take issue with the "99% speculation" comment, Tesla's work and motivations are well documented, in broad strokes at least. Avellone's one line comment in what was essentially a mailing list digest has nothing else to substantiate it, there's nothing else to back it up. Bethseda, along with everyone else, just refer back to CA's comment in 2002. AFAIK there's zero in-game evidence to support this idea and if you think about it and consider the implications then it simply doesn't make sense.


 * IMHO Tesla would've compromised had he not been shafted by Edison, that experience soured him to a degree and that was my PoD. Tesla's work would've led to an engineering philosophy of bigger and better, which is what we see in Fallout. The "miniaturisation" and energy efficiency philosophies we see in our world weren't a big deal in theirs, until maybe when the resource wars started. It's probable that it was simply easier to build and run fossil fueled vehicles etc until the oil and tar started to run dry.


 * At the end of the day the in-game evidence points to a pre-WW2 divergence, purists may scoff but the end result is what you see on the screen when you're in-game —Preceding . Please sign your posts with ~ !


 * Even if we disregard developer statements, it is equally likely that Tesla enjoyed "late fame" in the Fallout universe as it is that his actual life played out differently. All solid evidence only indicates his work enjoyed public recognition in 2077; there is no proof he already enjoyed fame in his lifetime or at which point his recognition started to grow. Your claim that his work is primarily responsible for the difference in technology between the FO universe and ours is just that, a claim; a couple of devices named after him is not proof that all fusion and robotics technology is based on his work. Even if that claim is true, it still does not necessitate an earlier divergence. -- Porter21 (talk) 18:41, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * The idea of Tesla's "late fame" doesn't explain Edison's complete anonymity in FO, it's almost like their roles were reversed compared to our universe. Draxenato 11:58, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are plenty of famous scientists and inventors who aren't mentioned in the Fallout games; you can't really draw conclusions from that, especially considering how scarce information about the pre-war world is in general. -- Porter21 (talk) 12:06, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * The conclusion I can draw is that Tesla's name, influence and work are all still well known enough in 2277 for him to get frequent name checks, Edison doesn't. Einstein's name and reputation survived though. No offence, but don't you think you're splitting hairs here ? Draxenato 14:08, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, but I do think you're jumping to conclusions over these things. Tesla is mentioned, Einstein is mentioned, Edison is not - these are the facts. Any meaning you're assigning to these facts is merely speculation. Tesla and his theories are known even in our universe and time, despite the supposed interference by Edison, and there are plenty of other inventors and scientists which are not mentioned in the games; this does not mean all of them did not exist. -- Porter21 (talk) 14:28, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * I take your point that lack of evidence doesn't mean any evidence exists. I guess the point I was aiming at, and apparently failing to hit, was that we have two contemporaries working in the same fields, one of them becomes a part of the scientific mainstream and pop-culture, the other does not. Tesla was widely known in the pre-GW FO world while there's no mention of Edison at all. Don't you think it's a reasonable supposition, based on the in-game evidence at least, that Tesla was simply better known by the 2070's ? If so, then why ?? Was Edison discredited ? Unlikely. It's more likely that Edison simply didn't have the influence he enjoyed in our world. Was Edison even born in FO ? Was it his (let's be honest here) belligerent business practices that were his undoing ? Draxenato 15:54, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Maybe Tesla was better known by 2077 (although I'd still say it's a bit of a stretch to state that) but anything you are deriving from that has no ingame evidence to back it up; it is speculation. There is no ingame evidence about anything concerning Edison's (or Tesla's) actual life, all the points you are making are based upon what you consider possible and/or likely; that's the very definition of speculation. I'm not saying it's not possible (I wouldn't have evidence to back that statement up), but it's certainly not a compelling argument that the divergence occured pre-WW2. -- Porter21 (talk) 16:50, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Regardless, I don't recall Edison being present in our everyday life as much as you make him out to be. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 12:57, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Computer science - no chips for you!
Computer science took a radically different path in FO, their development of transistors, integrated circuits and computer chips came much later than in our world. The question is why ?

Our world took the "miniturasation" route to address various problems encountered by early computer scientists. Computers based on vacuum tubes are very difficult to manufacture, they're unreliable and need frequent maintenance, they're also very very slow. The introduction of transistors and computer chips later on, addressed these problems, their invention was a matter of engineering inevitability. The integrated circuit (which later became the silicon chip we know today) was invented on not one but on at least two occasions we know of. Jack Kilby of Texas Instruments and Robert Noyce of Fairchild Semiconductor both developed integrated circuits on a chip independently of each within a six month time period. Integrated_circuit

The computer scientists of FO would've faced the same practical problems as in our world, but as the computer chip didn't arrive until much later then it's reasonable to assume they found another way of solving them. I'm going with semi-organic technology, specifically the integration and adaption of brain tissue with computer systems.

As evidence I offer the existence of the Robobrain, the organic innards of Protectrons and arguably the development of androids by the Institute.

This next is pure speculation. If using brain tissue as computer circuits solved the problems of speed, reliability and (to an extent) manufacture that could've led computer science down a technological blind alley. Their immediate problems solved there was simply no impetus for the engineers of FO to take the route our world took. Computers in FO are at the same level of popular usage as they were in our world in the 1970s, they remain largely in the domain of government bodies, the military, academia and small businesses.

If brain tissue was used then where did it come from ? We know cloning technology, or at least the precursors to it, existed before the Great War but it wasn't in widespread use, so the only other source for the tissue would be from harvesting, possibly from the bodies of condemned criminals or from people carrying organ donor cards. This would account for their relative scarcity compared to our world. It's only the abundance of materials in our world that makes computers cost effective as entertainment and general purpose devices. If computers are rare then they'll get used for the most mission-critical tasks of the day, much as we saw up until the 1970s. Draxenato 13:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh, no, the reason the integrated circuit was not developed until 2070s was purely aesthetic choice. Remember, Fallout is inspired by 1950s science fiction and how people thought technology would look back then, so lamps are purely an aesthetic choice. Trying to rationalize it as much as you try to is kind of missing that. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 08:53, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well for me that's part of the fun :) And anyway, isn't rationalising the storyline the point of the Divergence page ? For me, FO3 (can't speak for the others titles) is an immersive "sandbox" world, and simply waving away aspects of that world by saying one of the designers simply thought it might be a good idea, that sort of thing really takes me out of the story. It destroys all form of dramatic tension for me, I mean what else might've been a good idea at the time ? Machine guns firing marshmallows instead of bullets for no other reason than the player's gotten past Lvl-18 ? Like any good fiction, games like FO have to maintain an internal logic and consistency, or else what's the point in any sort of narrative ? In FO3 we're encouraged to get out and explore, a lot of the backstory and info that we pick up along the way doesn't lead to items or XP, it's simply there to add to the storyline and hence the atmosphere of the game / immersive world. Draxenato 12:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * First, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 set the rules, Fallout 3 merely tries to emulate them and fails, simply because there's a lot of "cool stuff" thrown in for the sake of being cool. The BoS, the Enclave and the Supermutants are all jammed in because the lead developer thought they were cool to have in. Tenpenny's Tower? Oh, Fiddler's Green was cool, let's have it in! Superhuman Gambit? Oh, so many silly superheroes in the 1950s, let's put them in! Stores untouched for two hundred years despite being right next to a human settlement? Oh, *handwave*. Etc.
 * Second, since Fallout 3 does not have an internally consistent gameworld (rather being a funpark with a lot of attractions) trying to rationalize it is pointless, as the developers did not try to rationalize it.
 * Last, Howard himself stated that they're "just doing what's cool". http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 13:08, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I was hoping we could avoid the sort of elitism that implies if you don't take FO1 and 2 as the gold standards then your opinions aren't valid, IMO it really doesn't help in these sort of discussions. The BoS, Enclave and Supermutants were all integral to the plot of FO3 so I wouldn't say they were "jammed in". Yeah if anyone wanted to nitpick then there's a shedload of inconsistencies, why would a raider attack you with a knife when they're guarding a cache of automatic weapons and ammo, for example. The FO3 game mechanisms may not be internally consistent, see the above raider example, but in broad strokes the world setting and backstory do hang together pretty well. Stuff like the Superhuman Gambit and the Rube Goldberg Machine are just a bit of fun for the developers and (hopefully) the players, they don't impact the overall story and don't take you out of the game.
 * I really don't give much weight to what the developers say they wanted unless it appears on screen. I mean Trekkies don't take Star Trek:Phase II wikipedia:Star_Trek:_Phase_II as canon despite it being created by Gene Roddenberry and being intended as a sequel to the original series. The point being that just because a developer *intended* for something to happen doesn't mean it automatically becomes gospel. They're fallible and just as likely to get things wrong as you or I.Draxenato 13:58, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Then you are wrong. The author is always right and his word is law, unless it blatantly contradicts himself or earlier works in the series. I really can't understand just how stupid someone has to be to claim that the author can't have creative control over his work.Tagaziel


 * Try reading what I wrote again, then try reading what you wrote. This might help;

I said - "The point being that just because a developer *intended* for something to happen doesn't mean it automatically becomes gospel. They're fallible and just as likely to get things wrong as you or I." You said - "I really can't understand just how stupid someone has to be to claim that the author can't have creative control over his work." Where exactly did I claim the "author" can't have creative control ? I said they were fallible, they make mistakes, just as you and I do. Conan Doyle killed off Holmes, but then resurrected him. Tolkien did something similar between The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings and, again, Roddenberry did it with Star Trek:Phase 2 I never claimed they don't have creative control, my point was that they make mistakes. They're not gods. Their words aren't gospel.Draxenato 17:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * When mistakes are about half of your game, they stop being mistakes and start being idiocy. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * And no, the fact that these three factions are integral to the plot is irrelevant. I can make a Fallout mod with the Brotherhood in Macedonia fighting Greek Supermutants, but despite that being integral to my mod, it will not make sense in the context of the Fallout world nor be appropriate with it, no matter the explanation.
 * Ummm, call me Mr Thicky but how can something that you say is integral to the plot also be irrelevant ?Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I see what you're getting at, because *you* don't regard FO3 as canon, I'm guessing you regard it as just another mod. n'est-ce pas ?Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hah, nice try to edit my post. If you cared to notice, those two sentences were flowing together and formed a complete point. Namely, just because something can be given an explanation doesn't mean it's appropriate for the game or in-character for characters involved. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Brotherhood never had the ability to project power - it was a local, high tech xenophobic order, which was then blown out of proportion by people wanting kewl stoof in their game and lacked the creativity to come up with something original (or, more likely, were prevented from it by the lead developers).Tagaziel


 * This would be the same lead developers who's word is gospel ?? Look, over 30 years elapsed between FO2 and FO3, the FO3 plot explained the presence and role of The Brotherhood, these were the words from the lead developers of the franchise, by your own criteria they are writing canon. I'm sorry the franchise isn't going the way you'd like it to, I'm a lifelong fan of the classic Dr Who and these last few years have seen me weep tears of blood, but we have to accept the way things are.Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you purposefully miss the point? Or do you misinterpret posts on purpose? http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Stupid stuff like what I mentioned doesn't take you out of the game? Guess your requirements for "immershun" are pretty low then. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 14:09, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * "immershun" ? There's no need to be insulting. I appreciate that English isn't your first language but for the sake of clarity of communication it might help to make a bit of an effort.
 * My requisite conditions, "requirements" doesn't really work in this context, are actually very high. I don't slavishly follow the creators of my favourite franchises as if they were gods, IMO that's a really unhealthy attitude I mean look at the gibbering mess Battlestar Galactica devolved into. Personally I think that while the FO universe, in all its incarnations, is seriously flawed it remains one of the better future/alternative histories in the gaming genre, and with the addition of sites like this and informed fans like yourself then it can only get better.Draxenato 16:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * The fact that numerous OOC elements and stupid crap in Fallout 3 don't take you out of the experience proves otherwise. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/thumb/4/4a/Naglowaa_se.gif/11px-Naglowaa_se.gif Tagaziel (call!) 21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Back on topic for a sec... Rationalizing and trying to draw conclusions from an inconsistent gameworld simply doesn't work. Fallout was pretty darn internally consistent. Fallout 2 stuffed a bunch of jokes and cultural references in, and it began to mess with the internally consistent logic (deathclaws). Fallout 3 has abandoned the internal logic altogether, retaining any bits that struck the developers as "cool," adding any new bits that struck the developers as "cool," and omitting or ignoring any bits that didn't strike the developers as "cool."

So, yes, if you're of a mind with the developers, then Fallout 3 is pretty darn cool. That doesn't make it internally consistent, consistent with the other games, or logical enough to scrutinize very closely.

My advice: go with the "cool" and leave off trying to draw conclusions. You'll only get in arguments you can't win (especially with Grizzly).--Gothemasticator 21:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is also possible, if you do wish to rationalise it, that the reason there are no microprocessors in the fallout universe was down to fear of nuclear strikes, and fear of EM pulse from these wiping out any electronics. If you watch an advert on a TV in one of the trailers for the corvega car, it says "100% analogue, no micro-electronics", maybe this is a way of ensuring that after a nuclear war, technology would still function and not have its chips fried? We see this in many examples, such as the robco mainframe still functioning after being very close to downtown DC (so long as you power it on first). A better question is, where is this getting its power from?! Braindigitalis 12:45, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Aircraft
I'm pretty unhappy with the section about the divergence in aircraft development:

- Chinese bombers in Operation: Anchorage: In the article, these bombers are described as appearing "to be a development of the 1933 Soviet Kalinin K-7". I'm sorry, I really doubt that. Look up the K-7 at Wikipedia (there's also a link to another page with drawings, more photographs on the German Wikipedia article) and compare what you read and see there with the nice close-up shot at The Vault's bomber page. Both aircraft have nothing in common except featuring a twin boom tail. So what? Many other aircraft did, like WW II's P-38 Lightning or P-61 Black Widow. I don't know of any real world aircraft comparable to the Chinese bombers nor any real world heavy strategic bombers featuring twin boom tails at all, though. By the way, I love the thought that American strategic bombers would have looked like Northrop's YB-49 Flying Wing in the Fallout universe... Too sad one couldn't find anything interesting in that regard at Adams AFB!

- The P-80 actually was used by the US Navy at some point: Some P-80A's serverd with the Navy, with one of them being modified for aircraft carrier service (mainly a tail hook, but apparently no folding wings). The Navy also used P-80C's, which were designated TO-1, later TV-1. Eventually, these were used as land based training aircraft. I don't know for sure, but I doubt they had folding wings, which would require much re-design. The T-33, a two-seat training aircraft developed from the P-80 (and very closely resembling it), was also used by the Navy. Those T-33A's were designated TO-2/TV-2 and only used for land-based training. So it can be assumed they also had no folding wings. Finally, Lockheed developed the T2V/T-1 SeaStar, which was a member of the P-80 family. This one was fully navalised and actually had folding wings, but its canopy looked quite different from the original P-80's. I doubt there ever were real P-80's with folding wings like you find them in the game. And last, not least, the P-80 had it's maiden flight in 1944 and was put into service with the USAF in 1945. So, this would have happened around or before the point of the divergence occuring. I'd love to have a developer explain me why the US still used an aircraft design over 130 years old in 2077... ;-)

- The crashed rocket at Vernon Square actually is a Delta IX rocket, obviously. Yeah, looks a lot like an A4b. But the A4 looks like the cliché of a rocket, anyway. :-)

- Helicopters: The paragraph reads that helicopters "were never created in the Fallout universe, and are seemingly nonexistent". I highly doubt that - what about all those Vertibirds? In order to develop a tiltrotor or tiltwing aircraft like the Vertibird, one would need most or all the principles necessary for building a helicopter in the first place. For various reasons, I assume that a tiltrotor/wing aircraft is more complicated to develop and build than a helicopter. Actually, helicopters as we know them today were already built and used during the 1940's! So, there certainly would have been helicopters in the Fallout universe. Perhaps you can't find them in-game, because they were already scavenged or completely destroyed by the time the games take place? You won't find many airplanes, anyway. And as far as the military is concerned, perhaps helicopters were already obsolete in 2077? Because, usually a tiltrotor/wing machine has all the advantages of a common helicopter, but comes with a lot more speed in horizontal flight. Additionally, the prefix "VB-02" suggests there was a VB-01 Vertibird? Well, perhaps those were the Vertibirds from Fallout 2...

- A bit off-topic, but the parts used to build Megaton look like they're from a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar. At least the tail section, which is part of Lucas Simms' house closely resembles the characteristic tail of a TriStar. The real-world L-1011 TriStar was actually a development from our 1970's... Sopyt 22:51, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Narrowed down the date...
According to the computer terminals in The Pitt, the Wabash Bridge in Pittsburgh was replaced and demolished sometime shortly before the Great War broke out in 2077. However, in our world, that bridge was destroyed in 1948. That narrows the date of the divergence to sometime between August 1945 and 1948. I've added this information to the article, but feel free to remove it if you feel that it's too speculative. Another thing that should be noted, it's often mentioned that it must have occured before the lunar landing in 1969, but in actuality, it had to have occured before 1958, when NASA was formed in our world, as the USSA seems to have taken that role in the Fallout world. One final item of note, the transistor, which seems to be absent from the Fallout world was invented in 1947. Just my two caps worth. 99.21.170.63 12:35, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Fallout world could very well have constructed a new Wabash bridge sometime after the Divergence. Also, I don't believe there's any conclusive evidence that NASA was never formed in the Fallout world, just that it isn't around any more. Could have been a short-lived agency. I reverted the article changes.--Gothemasticator 18:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Navalized P-80
Yeah the naval P-80 isn't a divergence, and quite a few other 1940s fighters look similar to the thing anyway.

The Cultural Revolution and You
I'm pretty new to the Fallout universe, but just from my experience playing through Fallout 3, I've noticed a pretty glaring difference from our world that nobody's really put into words: the cultural revolution of the late 50s and 60s.

There were two things that helped that become a reality, being the adoption of the "failed" electric guitar by blues musicians and the subsequent musical off-shoot called rock and roll. The popularity of this new form of music - made all the more impressive by the fewer number of musicians per band - led to the death of "Big Band" music, which is just about the only thing you hear on the radio when traversing the Capitol Wasteland. Furthermore, because it was easier to get a band together, learn the instruments, and get your message out, counter-culture music came about, urging a generation to rebel against the values held by their parents. Without these two things, our world today would be much different, and possibly closer to what is depicted in the Fallout universe.

Now we have to consider why this particular divergence occurred. The simple answer is that, because of the reduced technical efficiency, it's possible the electric guitar was never invented. However, I believe it must have been around even for just a little while, especially when you consider a line spoken by one of Megaton's citizens, referencing other people's "hippie crap." As mentioned above, that means the hippie movement must have been around, however briefly, but certainly enough to get a reputation.

Thus I believe that a significant point of divergence would be when the electric guitar was invented but never caught on. Big band music continued to play, rebellion against society's ethics and morals was still considered taboo, and a small but vocal movement shone brightly before exhausting itself against the walls of conformity. --Jimmy-San 05:25, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice theory, but purely fan-fiction. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 06:18, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Transistor
Just based on a forum post at the Beth Forums (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1104056-timeline-split/page__st__20) Just wondering what is the source for the date of the development of the transistor in the FO universe? Thanks. Agent c 22:09, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

are world and the FO3 world
1945 end of WW2 FO universe same

1947 transistor invented FO universe it happened 100 years later

1954 rock and roll became popular FO universe this never happened

1957 the Ford Nucleon concept was just that FO universe using Nuclear power instead of gasoline was developed

1960s space race simmer of love Fo universe there was no space race

late 1970s Videodisks CD's and Cellphones developed FO timeline this never happened

1986 Chernobyl disaster FO universe never happened

1999s growth of the internet FO universe no internet

conclusion the Fallout 2010 would be very different from the RW 2010  --Owen1983 23:35, July 25, 2010 (UTC)