Forum:Ethics in "The Pitt"

Although I generally pick the karmically good option when playing as my primary Fallout file, when I was playing the Pitt with this file, I decided against helping Wernher and instead sided with Ashur. Although the game does not think so, I thought it was more morally right to support Ashur than Wernher. I'll state my reasons for this if this topic generates some interest, but now I want to know: what do you think? Which is more morally defensible, siding with Wernher or Ashur? Obviously, I realize that this is not a black and white affair, but, in your opinion, which is more right? --Twentyfists 23:02, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

Both Ashur and Wernher are not by any stretch of the imagination good people by themselves. Which is more correct depends entirely on your worldview. Is the sacrifice of freedom and even lives now admissible for a better tomorrow? Or is slavery always wrong, and the propagators of it must be punished. Then of course there's the matter of Marie, whether or not her entire future with her real family is worth freeing the slaves. In my opinion, The Pitt should go down in video game history for one of the toughest moral decisions ever (right up there with money or revenge in GTA IV) FinalWish 23:17, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally, I believe that siding with Ashur is the optimal choice. Note that I do not use "right" or "good". Morality is subjective and one cannot apply our standards to a post-nuclear world, as much as we'd like to. What Ashur is doing is the absolute best that can be done, given the reality of Pittsburgh. He is also a former soldier with actual, formal military training, a coherent vision and a loyal army to implement it. Wernher on the other hand is an unknown quantity, a free radical who only has words to offer. Note that if you side with him, not only do you kill Marie's biological parents, you also wipe out the raider army, effectively leaving the Pitt defenseless, with a handful of feeble slaves as its defenders. Ashur is the optimal long term choice. Wernher is for bleeding-hearts who can't plan ahead. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 10:00, March 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally, I didn't trust Wernher, since he was Ashur's second-in-command before being kicked out for trying to lead a coup. The way I saw it, this was just a second coup attempt to put him in charge and was not really in the slaves' best interests. --Twentyfists 22:17, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that Ashur's methods may be abhorrent, but on the flip side, there's ZERO evidence that Wernher is going to do anything in regards to The Pitt's troubles. Obvious spoiler, but in addition to Wernher's lack of interest in rebuilding The Pitt, think about the environment he intends to develop the cure in. When you first see her, Marie is in absolutely no danger of any sort of being harmed. If you decide to hand Marie over to Wernher, the place she'd be kept in is at the base of a blast furnace - anything BUT safe. What's more, a little dialog from Midea seems to indicate that she herself doesn't think the cure can be developed without outside help - and after taking a look at the place, who in their right mind would WANT to visit The Pitt, especially if there's no evidence that it'll get better? As TvTropes put it, the morality in The Pitt isn't so much Grey and Gray as it is White and Black - it just requires you to look a bit closer at the situation. Titan AEX4 14:22, April 15, 2011 (UTC)

I picked Ashur, because of everything the majority of you people have been saying, he is a good man but its his army that give him a bad name, Wernher doesnt have a clue what hes doing to be honest, although whats happening to those slaves is wrong, it is a very tough decision and a very well thought out expansion.Levi Lauson 15:48, April 16, 2011 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. While morality seems to be a core theme in FO3, it seems to have a more central role in The Pitt than anywhere else. You're asked to obtain a cure and then, through a little investigation, you find out that the cure is a baby. It's pretty evident from that point that Wernher and Midea expect you to kidnap Marie. Like everyone else on this thread, I chose to side with Ashur and not Werner. Ashur showed more interest in rebuilding The Pitt than Werner. I also don't like the way the Ashur's men, the Pitt Raiders, treat the people of the Pitt. Although it interesting to note that when you do first meet Ashur, he's correcting one of his men. The guard refers to the people of the Pitt as slaves, then Ashur corrects him, telling to call the people are workers and not slaves. So it's clear to me, at least from that conversation, that Ashur treats the people with civility and is trying to get the Pitt Raiders to do the same.--Ryker6119:41, April 16, 2011 (UTC)~12:39pm 4/16/2011

I think we're all in agreement here. Not only would you have to kidnap a baby, which would then live in terrible conditions, be treated as a tool for others' gain, and would probably be killed as well by overzealous experiments or the unclean environment outside of Ashur's home. If you believe Ashur's promises, his intention is to use slaves only until they have the ability to start using voluntary labor. As unlikely as it may seem, Ashur's plan for the Pitt would be beneficial for everyone involved there. Werhner's plans would, imo, halt progress in the Steel City. Flagcaptured 17:11, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

It's a lot like Mr. House's storyline in New Vegas. Do you sacrifice the good of the whole for fear of them being oppressed? In New Vegas, Mr. House's plan is designed to rebuild the old, destroyed world into a technologically superb society which would go leaps and bounds farther than the old one, albeit a 100 years or so in the future. For those 100 years, the people would rather suffer under the control of Mr. House, but in the end, everything would be ok. The same thing for the Pitt. Ashur keeps his people down, but only for their own good, so they can help them in the end. I chose to side with Ashur, and Mr. House, for the good of civilization. Bangarang! 20:21, April 17, 2011 (UTC)

i didn't really think about it but i knew the baby was the cure so i killed ashur and the raiders for what they do in the pitt and in the capital wasteland the kid may die but for the greater good. peop;le were lost because ashur forced them to work in the mill which is the only place where the trogs are i saw ashur as a monster that sacrificed the weak for his own gains and enslaved those who thought otherwise he had to die.--75.223.203.87 03:01, April 22, 2011 (UTC)