Talk:Bitter Springs

Burning Springs
Maybe yes? Nitty Tok. 21:05, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

East of Lake Havasu by Nevada, North of Flagstaff, on the Navajo Indian reservation, there is a dinky little reservation town called Bitter Springs. It definitely wouldn't be geographically correct, but it might have been it's inspiration, since they clearly went there (the Grand Canyon and Zion Park aren't that far from the town) for research.

My own correction: I lived in AZ forever and my memory isn't too hot, lol. Sun fried me. Bitter Springs irl is almost directly east of Las Vegas, and a few hundred miles.

--Blaylocke 20:26, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Rewrote the history section here, nominated the Bitter Springs Massacre page for deletion.Mictlantecuhtli 10:38, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Can't find NCR guys (doc and commander) Only one trooper wandering about. Maybe bug?

Missing "history" section from Great Khans themselves
If player speaks with Papa Khan about the history of Bitter Springs then they can get pretty clear picture as well, which in a way matches Boone's story (but not Chance's story). Basically as Papa Khan tells the Great Khans were looking for trouble. As he said, initially they assumed that NCR was just all talk and no action so Khans kept raiding them. They never took NCR seriously or as a threat and thought it to be easy pickings. So they just kept harassing NCR until NCR got fed up with it and retaliated. Great Khans were tracked to Bitter Springs and there was the fight. Papa Khan pretty much also tells that NCR didn't expect it to be the home of Khans, it was assumed that it's just a staging area or raiding camp. What Great Khans did not expect is that the NCR would shoot anyone and everyone, including their old, weak, young and females who were retreating through the canyon. As Boone tells, they saw them coming but due to sketchy communications and miscommunication they were told to shoot until they run out of ammo. So the Boone's story and Papa Khan's story match.

Basically Khans were looking for trouble and then they also got it, and a lot. They just didn't expect that NCR will shoot at anyone and thus the hatred. NCR side pretty much tells the same, they were harassed until they got sick of it and then they wiped out the culprits, civilian casualties though were a big mistake and something what NCR would see swept under a rug.


 * I noticed that there are no substantial contradictions between Papa and Boone's accounts, as well. It should probably be mentioned on the page that not all the Great Khan accounts differ from the NCR's story.


 * Consider the accounts of Bitter Springs updated. Thanks for the tip, man. --Char-Nobyl 15:51, January 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, this seems to suggest the NCR drew first blood (never is it stated that any NCR were killed in these "raids"). Cartman!

More than Khans at Bitter Springs?
I can't recall noticing anything which suggested that anyone other than Great Khans were settled at Bitter Springs when the NCR attacked it. Is there a specific source for this? Is there something in All Roads?140.209.179.147 18:08, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Bitter Springs Massacre summary
"In several instances it is revealed that the New California Republic massacred local tribals at Bitter Springs, including the women and almost all of the children (lone survivor on the latter) in their bid to secure the Mojave Wasteland."

I think this sentence implies that the NCR intentionally committed genocide by targeting the Khan women and children as a premeditated step in "their bid to secure the Mojave Wasteland." Since that contention is greatly disputed, maybe a revision is in order?140.209.179.147 18:26, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The attack, genocidal or not was intended to secure the mojave wasteland. That will always be the underlying motive for the attack, they set out to hurt the Khans and accomplished their goal. Mictlantecuhtli 20:34, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I just think there might be more appropriate ways to convey those facts without confirming, refuting or suggesting any particular version of events is the most accurate.  For instance, it could be re-drafted like this:
 * "New California Republic forces massacred local tribals at Bitter Springs, including the women and almost all of the children (lone survivor on the latter), during the NCR's bid to secure the Mojave Wasteland."


 * I think this example conveys all the same relevant facts, but poses less risk of confusing newcomers who may be unfamiliar with this story. The opening conditions upon the sentence seem unnecessary, as the page explains that several characters discuss these events, and using "revealed" in this case suggests to the reader that something may have been covered up to begin with, which is not necessarily the case.  And finally, "in their bid" may give the reader the impression that massacring women and children was an articulated step of the NCR's master plan to take over the desert, while "during their bid" merely suggests that this massacre happened while the NCR was attempting to take control of the Mojave.  So it's more fair to the NCR this way, and at the same time, none of this contradicts or casts doubt upon the version of events propounded by some of the Great Khans.
 * That's fine with me, I do tend to lean toward the Legion and NCR both being highly incompetent and weak. Though that's due to game limitations on their A.I. more than any political reasoning. Mictlantecuhtli 05:50, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Caesar's Legion
In my game, everyone (except for children) in Bittersprings says, "Caesar's Legion attacks with full force and I survive?" Furthermore, Mr. New Vegas often says on the radio, "Attention Refugees, Bitter Springs has been attacked by a group of traveling slavers." In my bro's game, he actually witnessed the 188 trading post get attacked by Caesar's Legion. Did this happen to anyone else? --69.115.249.130 14:14, January 19, 2011 (UTC)

NEVER TRUST A JUNKIE'S ACCOUNT
Hey all, you don't know me but HERE'S SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT! Chance's account may have been a CHEM-INDUCED/CLOUDED HALLUCINATION!!!! END. OF. STORY.

Long Hair
Anyone else here noticed that one of the female NPCs has long hair here? Wish we could select that. =/ ~User:Keimei
 * Yeah, I just noticed it too. She's got great hair, nearly fell in love with her too. Also wish I could select it for my females characters.Starship Troopers 05:12, September 17, 2011 (UTC)