Forum:Which faction is the "good" faction?

This may be only a game, but there is no justification for slavery or wanton brutality. IMO this obviates the Legion being good in any sense of the word. The choices offered and taken as the game progresses determine whether the player is "good or bad." The reason I like this game so much is that you, the player, make many of the same moral decisions we face as an individual & as a nation in everyday life. Perhaps with less immediate or draconian consequences but still the same. One could argue that like the US, the NCR has many flaws, but if it is run by people elected by the general population? It would then reflect the general will of the people governed or that they are too disinterested to care. I have had many interesting discussions with my 12 YO & his friends on these very issues & have tried to use it as a learning experience for them. fberfl--68.55.146.6 01:25, January 7, 2011 (UTC) OK, so I've started a few quests for the 4 major factions; NCR, Caesar's Legion, Mr. House and Yes Man. I'm trying to complete the game with good endings, so I'd like to know who the "good guys" are. I've ruled Caesar's Legion and Yes Man out, so it's between House and the NCR. Which side will benefit the good factions in the Mojave the most? I don't care about Fiends, Powder Gangers etc. --Rnnlmb 00:02, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * No one is the "good guy". The game is all about the shades of grey. Sorry but you're gonna end up being the bad guy in someone's eyes. Besides, if we told you that, you won't have a unique play experience. Sorry kiddo, you're on your own. Happy Trails! MoonshadowDark
 * Why on earth did you rule Caesar out? Only Yes Man can be the "bad" faction, and only if you are.
 * Traders and citizens in the Legion's territory are much safer than in NCR territory and the Legion keeps crime down to very miniscule levels. I don't see how safety and security can be bad, especially when they're the two things that NCR seems to lack consistency with. Nitty Tok. 02:23, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Only traders are actually safer in Legion territory, and only because the Legion relies on them for supply. As for the citizens, they might be safer from raiders and various creatures, but they're not safe from the Legion itself, being either forcibly drafted into the army or enslaved, with your children taken away to be raised by the Priestesses. And NCR only lacks consistency with safety and security thanks to the Legion. Ausir(talk) 02:31, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the Legion only needs conscripts for its army because of NCR. :P Nitty Tok. 02:33, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * No the Legion needs conscripts because that was how it was founded, Caesar made the Legion by teaching tribal Blackfoots how to fight and even if the NCR and all opposing forces weren't in the Legions way Caesar would still have a huge army because as we all know, a empire built upon slavery may last a long time but that empire won't last. The slaves will always outpopulate the citizens, but Caesar isn't stupid so he will keep a large army of conscripts because he know's that rebellions will happen. However Caesar has made it so he is the only genuinly intelligent person in the Legion from fear of a usurper so when he dies who ever takes over will fuck up everything. Thus ends the Legion. GodVsSanta 14:16, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lanius and Inculta are both pretty intelligent (though Lanius is a war hawk) and Lucius sure doesn't seem lacking in intelligence either.
 * Rome didn't end because it had slaves (so spare me the abolitionist viewpoint!), it ended because it had weak rulers that couldn't stop a bunch of Germanic barbarians. That was also the reason that both the old world and the Enclave ended; failure on the part of the President to keep order in the face of Chinese or Chosen One aggression. Nitty Tok. 14:21, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I could write a page-long list of simple reasons why Rome fell, ranging from lead poisoning to drought. The two main reasons why Rome fell, that I can see, is that A) the Romans separated themselves in two. So when the Germans came a-knockin', Byzantium was less than willing to lend help. B) The West Romans began to rely on merc Germans, which meant that there were Barbarians within the borders. And, of course, internal dissention caused by one of the the last emperor's attempt to re-paganize a Catholic populace. 16:35, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

I dont actually think the NCR, YES man , or the leigon are goood , only house sounds good , Cause i bet he could Get vegas ahead , Rebuild america , everybody else is just out for power , And yes i know House probably wants power too , but i also think he would help vegas the most with his Intelligence , i dunno its just my opinion :)
 * I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, boss. House is a self-professed autocrat, a man determined to have things exactly his way.  Sure, he's got a sharp mind and a solid, clear vision, but neither inherently mark him a good person, or a benevolent leader - in fact, he openly admits no real interest in being either of those things.  House is an aspiring tyrant, a man who expects unquestioning loyalty and will use any means, (be it fealty, force or subversion,) to quash competition the moment he detects it.  He doesn't even pretend to care one iota about rebuilding America, or destroying it, for that matter: he just wants the best and brightest fiefdom in what remains of the world.
 * This doesn't make him an inherently bad person either, mind you - it just makes him ambitious, and actually less so than most of the other major powers he competes with. To his credit, I cannot think of a single instance where he employs empty republican rhetoric to mask imperial ambition (as is often the case with the New California Republic), or engages in outright terrorism as a means of consolidating power (as Caesar and his Legion are wont to do); likewise, he doesn't see himself as the heir to humanity's potential like the Brotherhood, nor would he dream of subsisting on the plunder of said potential as the Great Khans do.  None of these things interest Robert House because none of these things become Robert House: he's never wanted the world, just Vegas.  Whether that's good or bad depends on your view of power, I suppose; Lord knows how many nations have risen or fallen on the strength of one will and a five-year plan.
 * Macmanius 19:37, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

The best option is to work with Yes Man with good Karma. You will push out the NCR and the Legion out west and east, overthrow Mr House and upon completion of the game, bring independance to New Vegas, of course with evil Karma you would take over and be evil


 * I agree with this. I worked with Yes Man for an independent Vegas and even did an ending with no bloodshed where both the NCR and Legion said they would leave and made vague threats about coming back someday. Yes Man did suggest he wouldn't be so nice anymore, but it still seemed like a "good" ending. I haven't done a Mr. House run yet but he just seemed too creepy to me. --hippiehop 18:43, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

IMO no faction is "good". Some are worse than others. NCR has its heart in the right place but is corrupt. Legion relies on Caesar and once Caesar and Lanius die, it's every man for himself. House is... capitalist. I'll leave it at that. 16:35, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

It's important to understand that neither faction is necessarily "good", like someone said NCR has it's heart in the right place, but the politicians don't, as Rose of Sharon Cassidy says "NCR's compass is spinning all the time". Caesar is just another Hitler, Good intentions gone really bad, Mr. House says he's "above" human.....ailments, such as greed, hatred or revenge. but sadly this doesn't pan out when he asks you to kill the brotherhood of steel with no option for diplomacy, based on he not agreeing with their philosophy. The only way to achieve a good ending is if you resolve any issues(atleast as much as you can) through peace and keep your karma level high. XxWillSxX 20:23, January 3, 2011 (UTC)XxWillSxX
 * ...Hitler had good intentions? ?:|
 * Caesar hasn't even started on his intentions because he needs a Rome from which to rule. Nitty Tok. 21:49, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * it doesn't belong here, but even with all the horrible things he did Adolf isn't just the cardboard cutout villain most people think. (Villain Yes, 2 Dimensional, no) Agent c 00:37, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh, noooo... I'm pretty sure that Hitler was a cutout villian. (Oh look, it's Godwin's Law!)
 * Caesar is no Hitler. :/ Nitty Tok. 02:41, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hitler actually did have a remarkable plan to reshape the world (or at least Europe), just like Caesar seems to want to reshape America. Hitler only committed genocide in an attempt to make a "perfect" race, so that we would live in a "perfect" world.  Good intentions, horrible ways at doing so.  Some of the same, with the exception of genocide, can be said for Caesar as well. None223 03:27, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * But then again, the same could be said of NCR, with the genocide. So, I guess that doesn't leave much for anyone to argue about.
 * Still, go Legion! :D Nitty Tok. 04:22, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * None, are you as ignorant as your posts make you out to be? Hitler wasn't sane. Genocide commited by the Nazis was pure insanity, directed against nations on the completely nonsensical assumption that Germans (and nordic nations in particular) are inherently superior to other nations. It wasn't some great plan - just a sad, crippled man's obsession. If you knew a little bit of history, you'd know that. There was no "we" in his plan. Unless you were of Nordic descent, you'd either be enslaved as a subject of the Reich, deported or (most likely) killed and incinerated in the furnace of a death camp. Hitler was fucking insane. If you claim he wasn't, you're fucking stupid. Learn some goddamn history for one, blood boils in me when I see ignorance about the worst disaster in recorded history. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 10:28, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe Yes man ? i dunno, independance can be a good thing or a bad thing , if it goes well , that ending is the best , if it goes bad , its probably the worst , Let me give an example : a Teen wants to leave home cause he doesnt like his parents and wants to live however he wants , but the parents are the ones who pay for him and want him to study and go to school and then leave and Get a good job , though they dont give him much freedom , so the teen runs away , Perhaps he runs out of money and Gets thrown out into the streets , perhaps he turns to crime to Support himself , of course there is the small chance he will do well , though it is small .... and now for a good independance example : the boss of a company is taking the company downhill , but there is a person who would be better than this boss , and all the people in the company like him ,  But the current boss has connection that keep him in place , now the rest of the workers can try to protest to get him out , they might get a better guy in charge and Make the company better , or maybe Not , but enough of that ...... anyways , what i was saying is that vegas could either be independant and collapse , or it could Make itself better , meh i dunno ... im not sure

I think the ncr is good because they have laws like real time and there huge.And there not like ceasors legion where they train kids and have slaves...yet there curruption makes everyone hate them.there trying to make america again.They have a president(who almost got assassinated in my game)they have punishement for crimes.Soooooooooooooo my guess is that NCR is the "good" faction.

Hm, to find out what the 'best' faction is, we could look at the endings that each faction comes with, shall we? [MAJOR SPOILER ALERT] (Yes Man) (If you completed 'You and what Army?') The Courier, with the aid of Yes Man, drove both the Legion and the NCR from Hoover Dam, securing New Vegas' independence from both factions. With Mr. House out of the picture, part of the Securitron army was diverted to The Strip to keep order. {Beat, slightly lower}Any chaos on the streets was ended, quickly. Chaos became uncertainty, then acceptance, with minimal loss of life. New Vegas assumed its position as an independent power in the Mojave.

(Mr. House) Mr. House's Securitron army took control of Hoover Dam and The Strip, pushing both the Legion and the exhausted NCR out of New Vegas. Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, a despotic vision of Pre-War glory. The streets were orderly, efficient, cold. New Vegas continued to be the sole place in the wasteland where fortunes were won and lost in the blink of an eye.

(Caesar) (if you let him live in 'Et Tumor, Brute?') Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave wasteland.

(NCR) The New California Republic celebrated its second victory at Hoover Dam, establishing definitive control over the entire Mojave Wasteland. Soon after, they negotiated terms to annex The Strip, Freeside, and many surrounding communities. The Mojave wasteland, at long last, had entirely fallen under the NCR's banner.

To me, only the Legion ending sounds like the 'bad' one. but if I had to pick, I'd want to live in indy Vegas. ~YesMan

In the special edition DVD Chris Avellone (the head writer) says himself that there isn't one inherently good or evil faction. They all have their strengths and they each have their negative sides. The NCR means to unite, but they are way to big for their own good. Caesar's Legion is great at keeping people together, and is well-educated. At the same they employ slavery and sexism. House wants New Vegas to be independent, but he's a self-appointed dictator. Then there's you: you plan on taking everything for yourself. The only real villain in my opinion is the player character.--Kleiner352 00:45, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great way to put it. Everything's perfectly fine until Benny fails to finish the job. Nitty Tok. 00:47, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

So in the end, the courier is the bad guy ...
 * I don't buy Caesar's justifications at all. For all his philosophical musing, Caesar's reasoning is as simple as, "Someone's gotta be a dictator, it might as well be me."  His society does not respect inalienable human rights, and his paltry excuses are that the benefits outweigh these harms and that the cruelties his society inflicts will leave humanity stronger.  I disagree in both respects.  Caesar presents a false dichotomy, because the Legion is not necessary for unity.  The NCR has exhibited feelings of manifest destiny, and would be expanding farther east if not for the Legion.  Second, efficiency is overrated.  The goal of any government must be to create and protect harmonious coexistence, not ignore the rights of the people.  It's always easier for a government to do so, but that doesn't make it right, even in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.  Third, his choices did not and would not improve the conditions of humanity, because the unity he offers is artificial and will prove to be illusory.  Caesar implicitly admits the Legion will inevitably fall, just like the Roman Empire.  But he seems to forget that when the Roman Empire fell, most of its advancements were lost along with it.  It's fall created the Dark Ages in Europe, which has arguably set back the "advancement" of our species as a whole by generations.  Caesar seems to think his Legion will be replaced by something better, but that's not what history teaches.  History says that his Legion would not be replaced by anything, but would simply wither and die.  The post-apocalyptic wasteland would devolve into to a bunch of feuding tribes populated by ignorant savages attack each other endlessly, little different than how Caesar found it, except with less hope, and humanity's recovery would have to start over from square one.
 * For all those reasons, the Legion is clearly bad, and the arguments in its favor are morally indefensible. There's a reason why most pro-Legion activities earn bad karma.  Anyways, the NCR is basically good; all the complaints about them can be made about virtually any modern government.  While many things can be said about supporting Yes-Man, I ultimately consider it bad only because of the results (the ending suggests that Yes, Man will become more independent, almost certainly betraying you and possibly killing many people).  So to me, the "good" faction becomes either Mr. House or NCR.  I say NCR.  Mr. House has three arguments in his favor: capitalism, expertise, and the NCR comparatively sucks.  House's capitalism fails because I disagree with his eventual goal: he wants to build up money so we may escape Earth and try to find another planet to colonize.  This is a fool's errand.  I think it would retard humanity's recovery, not accelerate it.  Capital should accumulate, but it should be put to uses that will have more realistic returns.  Next, House's expertise argument fails because he's not seeking to be a true leader, only to maintain control of the Strip so he may continue to collect capital.  While he's obsessed with squandering the resources he's collected, the people both inside and outside his domain suffer because of it, thus making him "bad."  And finally, just because the NCR bites off more than it can chew and a few bad apples take bribes doesn't make it an "evil" organization.  They seek to unify the country, seem to respect basic human rights, and offers democracy.  Just like democracy itself, the NCR is the worst choice available, except for all the other ones.Minor Edits 10:22, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with the conviction that human rights are somehow inalienable. The concept of human rights and their permanent applicability is a fairly young, new concept of law, coined in a relatively safe, industrially developed world where they can be enforced and respected.The trouble with your argument, ME, is that you are trying to apply our morality, a morality of a world where you are safe and your everyday existence is pretty much guaranteed, to a world where the sociaty is a young civilization that has barely risen from the ashes of nuclear devastation the old world brough upon themselves. You can't apply our morality to the world of Fallout any more than you can apply it to the Roman Republic or the Crusades.
 * As unforgiving and brutal the Legion's civilization is, it is certainly not worse than what the NCR proposes. Yes, the Legion enslaves many of those it conquers and punishes failure harshly, but in exchange it brings stability and safety. In Arizona, in place of raiders and warring tribes, it has created a stable, organized autocratic state, with a solid industrial base (after all, they mint gold and silver coins, mass produce standardized Legion armour and weapons, not to mention the well developed textile industry). They brought the harsh light of civilization to the wastelands. What they do is not pretty, but necessary to create a strong, unified nation able to respond to the challenges of the post-nuclear world.
 * Yes, the NCR has achieved similiar goals, but as mentioned by Caesar, all of this was achieved under president Tandi, whose decades-long presidency was a thinly-veiled dictatorship. A well intended, charismatic dictatorship, but a dictatorship nonetheless. Now, after her death, all the flaws of democracy have manifested themselves. Dirty politics are common (for instance, Brahmin barons using mercenaries to remove or kill mutants as part of their campaigns), caravan houses seek to dominate the market at the expense of smaller companies and the consumers (Crimson Caravan and the Van Graffs) and the NCR itself has been transformed into an imperialistic colossus on clay feet. The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that it's basically good, because its goals are noble. Problem is, corruption in the NCR is rampant, not only in the lower ranks, but at the top. For instance, President Kimball, General Oliver and Colonel Moore are three most important figures in the NCR and their campaign to control the Mojave. All three of them are war hawks favouring military solutions and bringing the Mojave under NCR control by force. For instance, Moore, with Oliver's blessing, outright orders you to kill the Khans, the Brotherhood and the House simply because she doesn't want to compromise and agree with them through diplomacy. Hell, she even ejects ambassador Crocker simply because she doesn't agree with his approach to handling delicate situations.
 * This approach is further exemplified by the NCR's treatment of Vegas natives. They completely ignore the problems of local communities, don't help them in defending themselves or organize any kind of relief effort. Freeside, Westside, North Vegas and other communities are left to fend for themselves. Any non-NCR citizen is treated like an obstacle that needs to be removed or ignored. The only moment NCR reacts is if something (God forbid) happens to an NCR citizen in any of these areas.
 * Even the endings agree. For instance, if NCR wins and the Khans are allied with them, they are eventually forced out of their lands into even more desolate locations, simply because the NCR needs their stuff and they don't care about previously made agreements.
 * Furthermore, moderate NCR people, such as Ambassador Dennis Crocker, Colonel James Hsu or Chief Hanlon, who advoce a more thought-out approach to the Mojave are ignored. The war hawks don't listen to reason. Their vision of a great Republic is more important than petty issues such as respecting sovereignity of Vegas citizens. No, it's more important to annex Vegas and hold the Dam.
 * My choice is simple and fairly obvious - independence. With all the problems it brings, the presence of heavily armed Securitrons with a perfectly logical and rational intelligence controlling them, as well as freedom from NCR taxes and military presence ensures that an independent Vegas will develop on its own pace, not bowing to anyone. NCR will have to retreat and rethink its goals, while the Legion will be once more forced back into Arizona. House will not profiteer either. In the end, it will be the people of the Mojave who will prosper. And they are the only people that matter in the Mojave. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 13:21, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about inalienable human rights. I do not believe that just because my concepts of fundamental human rights were articulated in a stable industrial society, they are only applicable in such a setting.  They do not cease to apply simply because times are tough, that's why they're inalienable and fundamental.
 * The Legion offers education for a select few. It offers stability and safety for a select few.  For everyone else, it offers death, enslavement, ignorance and misery.  And I've already stated my belief that these deprivations will not yield any meaningful benefits to humanity's recovery.
 * The NCR offers a virtually identical level of industrial activity. The Legion cannot claim a monopoly on industrial success.
 * A relationship between the first Presidents of the NCR does not really affect the legitimacy of its governance. In fact, such a relationship is hardly surprising.  Approving of someone because of name recognition and because they come from a respectable family would probably be even more common practices in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.  The important questions are: were the elections relatively free and fair?  Do the leaders respect their contract with the people?  Is their governance fair?  On the balance, and with all the information presented, I think the NCR deserves the distinction of being the best option available.
 * It's not shocking, or damning, that voices of reason within the NCR military are being ignored by their superiors. That's a problem in any military (or society).  I don't think it's witnessed amongst the Legion because Caesar tends to, you know, torture and kill such people.
 * Some level of corruption is present in every democracy. Throwing out democracy because of corruption problems is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 * Ditto for governmental attempts to control big business while not crippling the economy.
 * The NCR makes mistakes, or circumstances may persuade them to do unpleasant things, just like any responsible government. The Great Khans and the NCR obviously parallel Native Americans and the United States government.  But if anything, the endings for the Khans prove that the NCR is the relatively "good" faction.  The forcible relocation the NCR chooses is nothing compared to the Legion's treatment: they strip the Khans of their way of life, slaughter those who pose no use to them, enslave the women, and kill anyone else who refuses to obey.  We may be dealing in shades of grey, but I don't think there's any doubt about which is the relatively "good" faction.
 * The Brotherhood is considered a terrorist organization by the NCR for good reasons. We have the benefit of knowing the way things could play out, so we know that Oliver and Moore's preferred method of simply wiping out Hidden Valley was a rash and unnecessary choice.  But from their perspective, fighting on multiple fronts for years with dwindling chances of success, their approach was hardly unjustifiable.
 * Killing House amounted to a political assassination. If we consider any powerful government that had ever done such a thing to be "evil," then the list of "good" governments that have ever wielded any significant power throughout history is extremely small, if not non-existent.
 * Some pissant NCR official made a potentially immoral choice regarding how to ration their supplies in Freeside. I'm sure there are numerous other examples of NCR citizens or soldiers acting in morally reprehensible ways.  The jackass stealing supplies from McCarran comes to mind.  But on balance, the people of the NCR we encounter in New Vegas seem to be a simple, non-hostile, even cordial people, just looking to live and let live.  And I say the choice is only potentially immoral because many of the people in Freeside, Westside, and especially North Vegas don't want any NCR involvement in their lives.  They don't want to be NCR citizens, and unlike the Legion, the NCR won't kill or enslave them for that choice.  But such people should hardly be surprised if the NCR wants to provide a benefit to citizens that non-citizens won't receive.
 * I think your analysis ignores the affect of slavery. Taking another person's liberty away is an egregious harm, often on par with taking away their whole life.  And humanity, at some point, in some way, will once again reject this injustice, and that rejection will be bloody.  The more the Legion reintroduces this practice, the greater the backlash will be when the decision is finally made to abolish it.
 * Independence would be nice, but that's not really what House offers. He offers a reprieve from other governments, nothing more, and in the form of a dictatorship which will ultimately waste all of his "society's" resources on a personal and unrealistic obsession.  And while independence may sound nice, humanity needs the strength that unity can provide.  That way, the people of the Mojave, the NCR, and all the rest both present and future will be better off.Minor Edits 00:15, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Have you asked yourself why are they inalienable and fundamental? Where were they in the Middle Ages or the Roman Empire? Why are they not respected universally? That's because they are, at their core, nothing more than a set of rules that apply as long as there is someone to enforce them. We are animals trying to mask that with refinement and laws, but ultimately, if there is no one to enforce rules on us, we will create our own.

Tell me, where is your proof that Legion offers education and stability only for a select few? We've only seen their army and how they conquer, we've seen nothing on how they organize their cities or society away from the frontlines. In fact, Dale Barton is proof that the Legion offers universal stability and safety in its wake. If they didn't he wouldn't be able to freely travel and trade throughout Arizona, while Raul would be dead before he could reach Black Mountain. Prove that Arizona is a cesspool of death, enslavement, ignorance and misery. Explain why Raul, who is very sensitive as far as needless death, ignorance and misery go, explicitly states that Arizona is better off under Caesar.

Tandi was the public face of the NCR and you are very quick to assume that NCR was fair, just and lawful good under her rule. Yet you forget that it was under her rule, in 2241, that the Bishops of New Reno were hired, by the NCR no less, to conduct a campaign of terror against Vault City to pressure them into joining the Republic. That right outside Shady Sands' city gates lay a slave trading center, even though slavery was officially banned. That the NCR supported (eg. Roger Westin or Elise) extrajudicial executions to further their goals. You forget about vicepresident Frank Carlson and his relationship with Merk, the head of the criminal underworld in Shady Sands. Tandi might've governed fair on a high level, but the rest of her administration and the Congress? They are corrupt, even more so because they are not kept in check by people

Tell me, why do you excuse NCR's numerous fuck ups by calling them mistakes or force of circumstance? The Great Khans/NCR alliance is not a good ending, as they are doomed to suffer in an even more desolate location and slowly wither and die. How on Earth can you consider a government that does not fulfill its end of the bargain and forcibly relocates the other party for not accepting that they got shafted good? The only good ending for them is independence.

I also have a hard time understanding how you consider political assassinations acceptable, yet base the rest of your argument around morality and human rights. Where were House's human rights when you murdered him for NCR's gain? Where were his liberties? And don't you give me the "sacrifice some for the greater good" excuse, unless you're willing to also admit that your talk about morals is hogwash. You can't refer to morality and human rights at the same time you accept extrajudicial executions.

The problem with your assumption that the NCR "won't kill or enslave" Vegas citizens for their refusal to be folded into the Republic is that it simply isn't true. If Vegas comes under NCR control, then the NCR will start taxing them, whether they like it or not. And if they refuse to conform, they will be ejected to make space for Republic settlers. Lebensraum, Herr Edits, der Republik braucht Lebensraum. I'm also surprised that you assume that Freesiders lie when they tell you about NCR squatters creating problems in the district. They might be nice when you see them, but that makes them no less responsible for disrupting Freeside's status quo.

Yes, slavery is quite problematic, however, you assume that the Legion is nothing but slaves and legionaries, which is quite simply impossible. Furthermore, if Caesar truly models himself on Rome, then it is likely that slaves have some way of buying their freedom and becoming a legionary/Legion subject. That's the way it worked in ancient Rome, likely the way it works (or will work here). I also expect that when the Legion takes control of NCR, it will truly become a synthesis and the society will change quite a bit. Last, I will refer you to history: Ancient Rome did not have many slave uprisings, so your claim about bloody rejection is simply not feasible.

Last, Mr House. I wouldn't say that his obsession is unrealistic, after all, he is an actual genius. If he has been able to devise a way to make himself effectively immortal and a reliable ICBM defense system, then he can be trusted when he states that he plans to restart hi-tech industry in 50 years and put a man in space in 100. You might disagree with that, but really, consider this: if in 1869 you told someone that in 50 years the world will have suffered a world war that dwarfs all conflicts to date and that in 100 years a man would be taking a stroll on Moon soil, he'd consider you a crazy person. And they certainly had a worse starting point than Mr House. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 16:51, January 6, 2011 (UTC).


 * Again, we will have to agree to disagree about the existence of fundamental human rights. As I said, some of my concepts of human rights were not articulated in the Middles Ages or in the Roman Empire, but does that mean I think they shouldn't apply?  No.  I don't see any reason to modify my own understanding of right or wrong, good or bad, based on what part of a timeline I'm looking at.  We are animals, but animals of the same species, and as I such I believe we should all accord each other some basic level of respect.  Basically, taking the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, erase "by their Creator" and replace it with "as members of the human race," and that's my belief about fundamental human rights.  These rights come from no government, and they cannot be taken away.  That's my personal belief, but you have not really given me any reason why I cannot apply it in a post-apocalyptic wasteland if I so choose.


 * My take on the Legion is supported by their overly-vicious warfare. The only people, the "select few" I mentioned, who may benefit from the Legion's society are those who survive the initial conquest, are not enslaved, and are lucky enough not to be female.  My view of the Legion is also supported by the character of the people who represent the Legion in the game.  Silus, for example, a Legionary commander who could order his men to kill themselves but didn't have the stomach to do so himself.  Lanius, a masochistic butcher who revels in pain and death.  Caesar, the leader of their society, whose vicious conduct and condescending behavior does not need to be recited.  Vulpes Inculta, who slaughters entire towns for their relatively small sins.  Basically, they're all ***holes.  Granted, they are all soldiers, but most of the NCR soldiers encountered in the game are far more reasonable and compassionate.


 * I notice that we can ask Dale Barton what he thinks of the Legion, but we can't ask the female slaves lugging around packs nearby. I bet that if they could speak openly and honestly, their perspective of the Legion would be much different.  Barton's own account of the Legion might be different if he wasn't surrounded by Legion soldiers in their most powerful base in the Mojave.  Regardless, I think it's important to note that both Barton and Raul are giving male perspectives of the Legion's "success" at creating stability.  Anyways, the question is not really how safe and stable Caesar can make his dictatorship (societies are often agreeable when you have killed or silenced all the folks who may disagree), but whether the injustices he inflicts are worth that extra safety and stability when there's another option which could achieve a similar level of safety and stability if given the time and opportunity to do so.  In my opinion, those injustices are not worth it.


 * I can't defend everything the NCR has done or failed to do (especially when you start digging into ancient history), no more than I could defend every screwed up thing my own government has done. But I can say that a fledgling republic cannot be expected to right every wrong it comes across right off the bat, such as slavery, and still hold itself together.  It seems you're willing to let the tough times of a post-apocalyptic wasteland justify the atrocities of the Legion, but you're unwilling cut the NCR any slack for the same reason.  As for corruption, refer to my previous post.  I would rather have a democracy suffering from corruption (in other words, a democracy) than a dictatorship which oppresses or kills most of the people who are unlucky enough to stand in its way.


 * Extrajudicial executions seemed to be the exception in the NCR. In the Legion, they are the norm.


 * I certainly can't defend hypothetical injustices the NCR may commit in the future, except to once again say that a forcibly relocating a group and allowing it to retain its identity and basic liberties is a far better solution that slaughtering most and integrating the rest.


 * I consider the NCR ending for the Great Khans to be relatively "good" for the reasons I already mentioned. The premise that unity is necessary for humanity to truly thrive and recover limits me to the NCR or Legion, and the NCR's forcible relocation is the comparatively compassionate option.


 * I didn't say the political assassinations were right, just that they are a reality. The question is whether engaging that activity may preclude a government from being considered a "good" faction.  And if the answer is "yes," then the United States government is also "bad," as are most of the mature governments in Europe, South America, ect.  Sacrifices can be made for the greater good; it's just a matter of degree.  I simply think the Legion unnecessarily allows too much to be sacrificed for the sake of that greater good (and most that involved them "sacrificing" the lives and liberty of other people)


 * Ancient Rome had numerous and extensive slave rebellions (it's really more accurate to call them wars). It was a major problem in their society.  In fact, Ancient Rome is a testament to the fact that as long as slavery persists, a rebellion against that subjugation is always just around the corner.  We didn't get a chance to see the slaves directly destroy the empire because the barbarian hordes beat them to it.  As for a bloody rejection of slavery, I will refer you to the American Civil War.


 * I prefer that in the future, even in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, people learn from history, rather than trying to repeat it. And that's very literally what Caesar is doing.


 * And as I said before, a hands-off dictatorship under House is not really "independence" for places like Freeside. In regards to his plans, the galaxy is a big place.  If Mr. House actually had a destination in mind, I might give his goals more consideration.  But he doesn't.  So I won't.Minor Edits 22:13, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

You can apply them if you want. However, I hold a simple, firm belief that it's better to be utilitarian and flexible in the wastes. If I have to kill someone to protect my own, I will. If someone cheats or crosses me, I kill him. If I have to clip someone's fingers to get information that can help me protect myself and my people, I will. I'd give people the benefit of the doubt if I could, yet keep a loaded shotgun just in case. Dangers of the wasteland make this necessary, in my opinion. At the same time, I'd actively work to curb anyone trying to encroach on the rights of others

Yes, the Legion is vicious, but I believe that such an approach is necessary in the post-nuclear necessity. Caesar's goal is the creation of a new man, with morality, self-control and restraint. Remember, this is the first, at best second generation of the Legion, whereas the NCR is nearly a century old. Social engineering isn't instantenous and I'm willing to give Caesar the benefit of the doubt; after I keep him away from the Mojave with my Securitrons, of course.

On Nipton, I wouldn't say those were relatively small sins. The mayor pimped out women to draw men to town, gave safe residence to sexual deviants (the Gutsy owner), commited the crime of treason against the NCR by selling their troopers to the powder gangers... Personally, after Vulpes explained his actions and my own investigation confirmed his claims, I was fully convinced that his actions were justified, given the context. I would not find that justifiable in our modern world, obviously; however, in a post nuclear reality, when treason nearly always costs lives and resources, it's entirely justifiable. Hell, the NCR would've lined them up and shot too, for selling out troopers to the powder gangers.

Why do you insist that Barton's own account could be different? For instance, Arcade doesn't have any problems openly talking with you about what he thinks of going to Caesar nearly in the same spot Barton is. About Raul: given that he's very sensitive on the subject of females (remember, his sister was raped to death, same thing happened to that girl from Tucson), so if all the Legion was as sexist as their army, then he'd surely tell you about it.

Yes, the question is that if these "injustices" are excusable. It wholly depends on who you ask. Would you rather be starving and poor but free, or well fed and with some stuff to call your own as a subject? Freedoms are irrelevant if you can't live a decent life; or if Republic's brahmin barons (eg. Gunderson) take your land and eject you (eg. Oak Creek, Phebus couple). That's my entire point.

On the subject of extrajudicial executions, you can't call Legion's actions extrajudicial, if the law is mady by Caesar and his officers, which makes their executions judicial. At least they are honest, whereas the NCR is not. I don't understand why you find forced relocation to an area even more desolate than Red Rock canyon, where the Khans are doomed to die a slow death, excusable or even acceptable.

Tell me, why do you think unity is necessary for humanity to recover? Humanity has already recovered, formed new civilizations... Why should they return to the old, failed methods of the old world, especially if it leats to repeating of old errors, such as corporate interests overshadowing the common good and progress? Democracy and "unity" have already led to one nuclear war, ie. failed. That's how I view the NCR: a well intentioned, but ultimately malevolent force that wants to unify the wastelands and will, but will enslave people to corporations and political interests. This reminds me of O'Brien from 1984, except the boot stomping on the human face forever has been replaced by president Kimball and his war hawks. As Chief Hanlon says, the NCR has already sent thousands of young soldiers to their deaths in the Mojave for what? The Dam. Not the people of Vegas, but the Hoover Dam. The fact that they continue the ignoble tradition of political assassinations is pretty telling that they're becoming a far cry from what Aradesh and President Tandi wanted the Republic to be.

The American Civil War wasn't fought for slaves, it was for keeping the States unified. Abolishing slavery was just a convenient side objective for the time being - most of the north was industrialized and didn't have to rely on slave labour, in contrast with the south. If there was no threat of secession, then likely the south would be permitted to continue enslaving folk. Remember, this same "refined" country treated black people as second class citizens until the 1960s. I also believe that you overestimate the slaves' ability in Ancient Rome. IIRC my history class, while revolts did happen, overall, over the entire period of its existence, they weren't that common or that powerful. Remember, slaves stood no chance against a well organized military the Rome possessed and by the time it stopped being powerful, the Germans started sacking the Empire. Really, if they had the ability to destroy the Empire, then they would've done so.

Last, how are people supposed to learn from history if they don't know it? Only the Followers and people educated by them have any basic grasp of it; the average wastelander is completely ignorant.

To sum up, I'm an anarchist at heart. While I know it's impossible to create an anarchist society in the modern world, I believe that the nuclear war wiped the slate clean and as exemplified by Freeside, Westside and North Vegas, anarchist communities are very much possible; what more, I believe that voluntarily cooperating settlements should be the future, not an organization repeating the errors of a failed ideology or a new, fascist force.

Although I still find the Legion fascinating and certainly enjoy working for them. Undermining the NCR and the Legion at the same time paves the way for independence in Vegas. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 19:53, January 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * You accept Caesar's premise, which is essential in order to justify his argument, that humanity's "slate" was wiped clean by the bombs. I do not.  The course of humanity may become stalled or take a wrong turn, but there is no reset button on the human race.  Or maybe there is, if all pre-war knowledge was truly lost, but that's far from the case in this scenario.   In the Fallout world, the knowledge of the pre-war world has been largely preserved by various factions.  The lessons of history and philosophy, the accumulated wisdom of humanity (oxymoron, I know), have not truly been lost, irrespective of how much of it can be easily referenced by the average wastelander.  Therefore, the untenability of Caesar's argument is apparent: he justifies his actions on the basis of this "clean slate," even though his own level of education and the level of many others within the game essentially prove that the slate has only gotten dirtier.


 * I claimed Barton's account may differ if he was in a different setting. I don't insist it's true, merely that it's a possible subtext of the situation presented.  The same kind of speculation cannot be done in Arcade's case because of gameplay mechanics and limitations; companions will hold any conversation you choose in the same way regardless of the setting.  My ultimate point was that, as a male trader, Barton holds a place of privilege in the Legion's society (and he's white, which may also give him a leg up in Legion society, I don't know).  He's well-protected and his rights are relatively secure.  He's comfortable.  And the last thing comfortable people generally want to do is rock the boat.  In regards to Raul, he may not share or emphasize information that he considers common knowledge, and drastically unequal treatment of women in Legion society probably falls into that category.


 * Why do I think humanity needs to recover ... well, two interrelated reasons: human nature, and the state of the world in Fallout (at least, the parts we've seen) is no more sustainable than the state of the world today. Humanity has not "recovered" in a meaningful sense of the word.  There are hopes and hints, but not true recovery.  Wastelanders have been chewing on the carcass of the old world for over 200 years in Fallout, and it cannot last.  I mean, I don't expect drastic changes in the fundamentals of future games; I expect to dig a lot more cigarettes and edible food out of a lot more dumpsters and garbage cans.  But considering the scenario in a more realistic light, it's miraculous that the junk of the old world is still available, and it won't be forever.  When the junk finally stops being discovered, the economy will no longer be fueled by "prospecting," and whatever civilizations are around during this time will have to be able to stand on their own.  You imply that the NCR places undue importance in the Hoover Dam, but I don't think that's the case at all.  Something that advanced is far beyond their capability to create, or anyone else's in the post-war world, and it may be truly irreplaceable.  It would most likely be generations before any faction we've seen could actually build something on the scale of the Dam, and even then, it's doubtful any group would have the wherewithal to do so.


 * But the Dam's more than just a relic. The power provided by the dam is essential for growth.  And growth is essential because of human nature.  Human nature is my polite way of saying f***ing.  That's what human do, **** like rabbits.  We consume, ****, and watch our numbers exponentially increase.  As long as consumption and ****ing are possible, prosperity and peace generally ensue.  If these things become constrained, conflict and suffering develop.  Conflict over the basic necessities of life could easily reach a degree where fledgling civilizations could implode in on themselves, thus threatening the sustainability of many human population centers.  To push the point even further, there are all sorts of ways where, due to an insufficient recovery and some very bad luck, humanity could become extinct altogether (it's unlikely, but sufficiently possible to warrant concern imo).  My concern at this possibility is not enough for me to accept the heavy-handed tactics of the Legion, but it's enough to convince me that humanity is still in dire straits, and working together is necessary so all participants are resilient enough to survive.  Anyways, as a population grows, it must be provided for.  Jobs, shelter, and most importantly food and water.  More advanced industrial and agricultural capabilities will be essential in order to sustain growing populations.  If these advancements are not established quickly enough, I believe people in Freeside, Westside, North Vegas, and places just like them all over are doomed to suffer starvation and death.  Their fragile little realms will collapse as former neighbors kill each other over scraps.  In short, I don't believe the status quo and "independence" will really benefit anyone in the Mojave in the long term.  The status quo is a limbo which will end in stagnation, decay, and death.


 * I'm a libertarian at heart, thus loaded terms like "social engineering" set off alarm bells in my head. That's why the integration the Legion offers to those it conquers, a very extreme form of social engineering, is repugnant to me.  The NCR's choice of relocation for groups who don't wish to join, such as the Khans, is extremely distasteful.  But with the NCR's method, they will either live or die together as the Khans, and if they can't find a way to survive as a people, well ... Darwin, man.  Cold, unforgiving Darwin.  You could perceive it to be the result of some unfair land grab by the NCR, or as the end result of the Khans' taking up arms against the NCR in the first place, or in some entirely different view.  But for me, if I was a Khan, I would take relocation over losing my identity, even if there was a substantial likelihood that death would result (and especially since many of my family and friends would be killed even if I did want to join the Legion).  Anyways, it's not like the NCR is forcing them to stay on a barren rock; the Khans could try their luck with the wasteland if the situation were really that bad at whereever the NCR dumped them.  Regardless, they've been discussed to death at this point.


 * Vulpes' actions are debatable, I guess, though my point hardly centered around them. But if that's what you want to discuss, I wonder what terrible sins Owen and Beru committed that demanded their deaths.  I wonder if most of Nipton deserved to die.  But I don't have to wonder whether Vulpes actually knew or cared about individuals' transgressions.  He seemed too busy handing down judgment upon them as if he were God to be troubled by questions of whether or not they really deserved it.  "Justice" conducted in such broad, inaccurate strokes is not really justice at all imo.


 * Your point regarding extrajudicial executions is a wonderful semantic argument, but in the end only illustrates why a dictatorship, where the law of the land is one person's whim, cannot really be justified as an acceptable form of governance.


 * You like bringing up Heck Gunderson. I like bringing up Edmund Burke.  If you think Gunderson's an evil person, do something about it.  He only wins if you don't.  Burke put it a lot more eloquently, but the point is the same.  Another evil brahmin baron might crop up in the future, maybe due to systemic problems with the NCR's tax structure or regulation enforcements, or simply due to corruption and under-handed dealings.  But hopefully that won't matter as long as people supporting the NCR, its people, and its values are there to fight the "good" fight.  Injustices which may be committed in the meantime by a person like Gunderson are unfortunate, of course, but they're not a game-changer.


 * In regards to the American Civil War: the issue of slavery is what threatened the States' Union. Whether you want to analyze it economically, politically, socially, ect., it doesn't matter; slavery is always acknowledged as the chief underlying cause of this conflict, which claimed the lives of well over half a million people.  Let's stop with the straw men.


 * So, democracy and unity led to a nuclear war between blocs championed by the United States and Communist China? I don't think so.  Unity was obviously not the problem, and while you could say that democracy failed to stop the war, it's a pretty big leap to say democracy led to it happening or caused it to happen.  At least, according to my understanding of the Fallout scenario and how/why the bombs fell.


 * Republics never are exactly what you want them to be, never act exactly as you want them to act. But they persist, nevertheless, because of the hopes and faith of the people living within them.  If you have to have a government (and I believe they're necessary), I would rather have one that derives its support by nurturing hope, rather than instilling terror.


 * As for Ancient Rome, I'm not arguing with the historical fact that they managed to successfully squelch slave rebellions until their military power abated. I'm merely saying that the rebellions happened, they were tumultuous, and if the Roman Empire had managed to last longer, the rebellions would have continued into the future as long as slavery existed.  They would have remained a constant source of concern, more uprisings would have occurred, and while the odds are always against a rebellion being successful, the great part about them is that it only takes one.  And sometimes, rebellions don't have to strike a blow by being successful.  Before, I said the slaves did not directly destroy the Empire, but I believe they played a part.  The efforts undertaken to squash rebellions, the security that was constantly needed to guard against them, and the vigilance required to deter them were contributing factors in its downfall.  Basically, I think the reason why the Empire fell in part is the same as the main reason why the South lost the American Civil War: too much of their societies' resources had been invested in slavery at times when they needed liquidated capital to fund military campaigns and secure themselves from other threats. Minor Edits 13:05, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

I have to say, Tagaziel, you are easily the most educated and articulate person I have seen express their thoughts in the forums. not to say everyone else is stupid (i think that to have a conversation about this series in an intelectual manor requires some intelligence) but you're the most interesting i've read. cool to see someone who knows their shit. btw, i take it you like nietzche?

and to expand on my earlier comment, i think that the player character is an over-all villain in comparison to the rest. you plan on giving a middle finger to everyone, and with absolutely no previous knowledge of how to run a civilization (as far as we know of the courier) intend to rule everything yourself, with just the help of an AI and the people's adoration. it seems more like you're in it for the fame and money, doesn't it? if anything, the PC is the most tyrannical of the factions, and easily the most greedy. sure, house is a self-appointed dictator, but at least he knows what he's doing and is really just trying to keep what was already his. just think it's interesting that in a modern-day game, the main character is the only one that you could really label with the generalization of "bad".--Kleiner352 12:58, January 9, 2011 (UTC)