Forum:Size of the NCR-Legion War

How large do you think the NCR-Legion War is, by area? Where exactly are they fighting? Obviously there is much fighting in the Mojave and New Vegas region, but where else do you think the fighting is intense?

The NCR is said to control the entirety of New California (or the "Core Region"), which extends from Klamath in southern Oregon in the north, to Baja in the south, and I would guess that it extends eastwards to California's border with Arizona. A lot of western Nevada (like New Reno and Vault City) and southern Nevada (parts of New Vegas) also is considered NCR territory. And in 2253, 3 battalions of NCR infantry were dispatched into the Bullhead City-region, so they at least had a presence in far western Arizona.

The Legion, according to Caesar himself (a very reliable source in some ways if you ask me), controls all of Arizona and New Mexico, and most of Colorado and "the Utah". So, the Legion and the NCR shares a pretty hefty border south of Hoover Dam and New Vegas.

The Colorado River would probably be the main border between the two, with river crossings and bridges and boats being the only way to attack each other (which does happen in the Mojave). There must be conflict all along their border. Major bridges like the one at Bullhead City, the one at Blythe, and the one at Yuma would most likely be intact enough for military forces to move along them. And the Colorado River gets narrow enough for boats to be launched at certain places. Actually, the workers at Sloan and Quarry Junction are mining and mixing cement for the NCR to probably "build fortifications" with, so perhaps all along the Colorado River in specific places (probably the areas where they have 100% control) there are bunkers and forts for the Legion to contend with. Also, maybe the majority of the bridges and crossings along the Colorado River were in fact destroyed, which maybe makes the Hoover Dam a very essential river crossing. But Caesar was apparently obsessed with taking Hoover Dam and New Vegas, as a symbolic Rubikon river for him and his Legion to cross, and to make New Vegas his Rome. Maybe this route would also allow the Legion a quick invasion of New California.

In the northern frontiers past New Vegas, the NCR and the Legion did not have a very tight grasp. In southwestern Nevada and southern Utah, there are only tribes like the White Legs and raiders like the 80s. There probably wouldn't be much conflict between the two here.

The Legion is also capable of getting a lot of troops deep into NCR territory quickly, as proved by the Divide. After the NCR annexed the Divide and opened it up as a trade route to get troops and supplies into the Mojave, the Legion acted quickly to eliminate it as a supply route. The Divide is apparently in California somewhere, as Joshua Graham states that storms of the Divide "ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil".

So what do you think? How large was this war by area? Any thoughts?

Rilery13 (talk) 21:29, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe you are correct, from southern Utah to the Baja coast is the most likely boundary. I would also call to your attention Fort Abandon, as it is more northern end of the, lack of a better term, border. As for the Divide quote;


 * I'm guessing you don't like Caesar very much.
 * Love the sinner, hate the sin. With Caesar, it's often very difficult to see through all of that sin to the person inside. I can say that we were both lucky that NCR's supply lines and land routes north of Mojave Outpost were destroyed before the Battle of Hoover Dam. Something bad happened near Death Valley, at a place called the Divide. NCR couldn't cut across anymore and it slowed down their reinforcements. Terrible storms ripped entire companies apart before they even got to Nevada soil. The aftermath of Hoover Dam could have been even worse for Caesar.

I'm not sure how this is possible as the Divide is in California not Nevada. If they came from the south they might as well have attacked the Hub and if it was from the north they would have had to travel completely AROUND Nevada just to get there.

--Ant2242 (talk) 00:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a very good question. Once I have access to some map software and my image editing stuff, I'll try to chart the frontlines. Tagaziel (talk) 18:40, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

That would be amazing! I love maps, and any map pertaining to the Fallout World would be great :). I tried to make one, but I couldn't find or use the right softwares. Anyways, I have another question: where do you think Fort Aradesh... Fort Abandon, is located? On the possible Van Buren world map that I've seen on the Gamepedia, Fort Abandon is located in northern Arizona, east of the Grand Canyon. This is obviously not cannon, but Fort Abandon's existence is definitely cannon, as it is mentioned by Ulysses (one of the best characters in all of Fallout if you ask me). So, where would you exactly place Fort Abandon? You two are seem to be huge Fallout fans and have awesome amounts knowledge on it, so I was hoping you might have a good estimate. Personally, I figured it might be in eastern Nevada or on the fringes of NCR territory in the north, but close enough to the Legion, (as it was implied that they were the ones who turned it into Fort Abandon), but yet still somewhat west, as when Ulysses is listing the places the Courier has walked in "the west", the Fort is mentioned. Maybe the Legion weren't the ones who destroyed it, and subsequently turned it into Fort Abandon (the NCR definitely has a lot of enemies, so maybe it was another party or faction). Any thoughts? Oops forgot to sign again. Rilery13 (talk) 00:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe Fort Abandon is in the northwestern Arizona/Nevada border, near the Colorado. Close enough to the river for a fort, and far enough that NCR would want a standing presence. I agree Ulysses is up there is the great character list. As for a completely canon map of NCR and Legion...

--Ant2242 (talk) 02:01, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow, that's a really cool map. And your reasoning makes a lot of sense when it comes to Fort Abandon. Here's another question: how effective or operational do you think the NCR Air Force is? They possess a reasonable amount of Vertibirds, captured from their war with the Enclave, but how often (if at all) do you think they actually use them? They might not be able to fly them at all, as even the NCR's president's personal Vertibird, Bear Force One, experiences flight control problems often and requires continuous repair and maintenance in order for it to fly safely. The NCR does have a number of Vertibirds at least nearby in the Mojave, at their camp on the Long 15, but why don't they use them? The Legion has no air power (at least that we know of, but it is almost impossible that they do), so the NCR basically owns the sky. Their range is certainly not a problem, as Bear Force One made it all the way to Hoover Dam. Is it that they would not be able to keep up maintenance and repair necessary to field them? Do they only use them in specific missions (like search and rescue)? Why don't they just fly a few right over the Fort and mini-nuke it to hell? What do you think?

Rilery13 (talk) 11:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The NCR doesn't really own the sky. They have Vertibirds, yes, but they appear to be used exclusively in a transport capacity, rather than as ground support weapon platforms. I can think about several reasons for that:


 * 1. The Vertibirds are limited in number. Ever unit lost is a severe blow to the Army's capacity for conducting flying missions of any kind.


 * 2. The supply of trained pilots and gunners is even smaller.


 * 3. The supply of military-grade ammunition for a Vertibird is limited and would therefore be used only for the most critical of missions and where there's no threat of enemy retaliation.


 * Why didn't they strafe the Fort? That's likely because the Vertibirds wouldn't even get close to Fortification Hill and even if they did, they'd be shot down. Not to mention, even with Caesar dead, the inertia of the Legion would still lead them to try and take Hoover Dam.


 * Remember, helicopters are fragile creatures. Fortification Hill is located on an elevated plateau with excellent visibility and Legion spotters would see the Vertibirds well beyond effective range. Given the training the legionaries received, they wouldn't break and run when faced with a Vertibird. They'd dig in and open fire, meaning that NCR aircraft would be flying into a wall of lead, from 5.56mm rounds all the way to 12.7mm BMG anti-materiel bullets. The sheer volume of firepower directed at them from the ground would easily damage crucial systems, perhaps even the engine nacelles. As we know from Daisy, a Vertibird with just one working engine is a coffin plummeting to the ground.


 * It's the same reason why the NCR doesn't attempt an amphibious landing at Fortification Hill. Tagaziel (talk) 12:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

That makes total and complete sense, I didn't even think of or realize all of that. Those are all obviously very valid and correct points. Aside from their limited Air Force, do you think the NCR may possess other military vehicles and weapons like tanks, artillery, or even navy ships? Even if their uses and numbers may be limited? I know they would definitely have immense amounts of problems with even fielding one tank or howitzer, but do you think they may have several in operational use? Surely in the enormous Core Region there were pre-War military bases that still had these weapons and vehicles, no? The Boomers got there artillery from Area 2 in Nevada if I'm not mistaken, but do you think the NCR has these things, too? What about the Legion? I have doubts about the Legion possessing artillery, as the only known howitzer they have was salvaged by an independent trader from Yuma, a place the Legion is supposed to have full control of. Any thoughts or explanations? You sound very knowledgeable. Rilery13 (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/NCR_Army#Mechanized_division As for Fort Abandon. It location is UNKNOWN(!!!) in the canon. And F:NV location of Fort isn't the same as in Van Buren, cause NCR never went so far to the east. --Languorous_Maiar (talk) 21:17, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

True its actual location is unknown. However the only place it could logically be is near the river, and since; "All territory east of the Colorado River is recognized as Caesar's land, an area indisputably under the control of the Legion and agents acting on Caesar's behalf." it would have to be on the Nevada/Arizona side if it is north of New Vegas OR somewhere along the western side of the Colorado.

Quick question however, where does VB(?) specifically say Fort Abandon is in Utah?--Ant2242 (talk) 23:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Why would I have brought it here?
 * I've walked the East. You've walked the West, more than I have. Circle Junction. Reno. Vault City. Word of you at Fort Aradesh... Fort Abandon. Even further West than that, Brahmin drives on the Big Circle. Whatever you saw out there, wasn't enough to make you stay. Maybe the markings on the package reminded you of the road home.

According to the canon LR, it might be even farther northwest.--Ant2242 (talk) 01:14, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is true, and I did not consider the Van Buren location cannon. On the map, they had placed Fort Abandon in southern Utah or northern Arizona, but in cannon the NCR only made it as far east as the Colorado River. They did send scouts east, but they were never heard from again... But from Ant's reasoning and Ulysses quote, it seems pretty hard to even estimate where Fort Abandon is located. All we pretty much know is that is used to be Fort Aradesh, got destroyed and became Fort Abandon (destroyed by who is still unknown), and it is considered apart of the "west" that the Courier walked.

Btw, Languorous Maiar, is the "Maiar" part of your name taken from JRR Tolkien?

Rilery13 (talk) 10:46, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Ant: Look there: http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/fallout.gamepedia.com/1/1a/FOV_WorldMap.jpg It's the only reference for Fort Abandon location. And yes, I agree with you that Fort Abandon must be near river. Also, you can already see that Tagaziel's map is waiting to be fixed: User:Languorous.Maiar/Stuff5 - "Deleting Fort Abandon from this map: FOC Region Map.png"

Rilery: Yes, it's from tolkien universum. --Languorous_Maiar (talk) 12:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I went through the wiki and acquired all the files that had "Fort Abandon" within them and added them to the page under "sources". Which still leaves us with these two questions;

A) Who made that Map? B) Where did they get that information?

--Ant2242 (talk) 18:10, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Wait, so is that the real Van Buren world map that ended up not being used? Or was that map made by some user?

And Languorous Maiar, that's awesome. I'm a huuuuuge fan of the Tolkien Universe.

Rilery13 (talk) 18:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Trig notes that it is "a little west of here" (Mesa Verde) and that there are people to trade with for capacitors.

--Ant2242 (talk) 19:03, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's official map. Look at the description "This map was created from the pre-release map of Van Buren's world. The grid scale of this map matches FO2's scale and not the scale of the pre-release map. The locations are placed upon their proper geological position." But if I'm wrong and it's not offical, then I'm wonder why Tag did not deleted it. --Languorous_Maiar (talk) 20:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

The description states that there is a pre-release map. Do we have it?--Ant2242 (talk) 20:09, 23 October 2014 (UTC)