Talk:Backwater rifle/Archive 2

Please note!
This is a talk page. It is designed to help make the article better. Items such as "this gun is awesome" etc. will be removed by an admin during cleanup. Please do not delete other peoples opinions or writings and replace them with you own. Thanks. --Kingclyde 05:21, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

I just removed "It is the best gun" from the Appearances section. Posted by an unregistered contributor. If there is a way to make that section un editable by unregistered contributors i suggest you do this JASPER42 13:33, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

44 mag in backwater
So did anyone else stock up on .44 mag for the thing or just me, Funny thing being I pressed about 5000 10mm for the .44 ammo well guess the Blackhawk gets extra use now.LTHENSON 05:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I just got it and it is just as powerful as the Lincoln and it uses 10mm, Awsum. Kalalokki 14:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So....Lincols Repeater....Useless now?Ah well....better dust off callahans magnum..... Butter 17:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh... I liked how Lincolns repeater had 0 spread, and the backwater rifle isn't that much more powerful. It seems like it has less of a crit damage bonus, but a higher crit multiplier. It also takes more AP. I imagine it would be better at short to medium range, non stealthed, either outside of VATS or with the Grim Reapers Sprint perk. Also, it would be annoying to repair outside the DLC unless you REALLY stock up on lever rifles before returning to the Capital Wastes. I think it's a matter of preference and playing style. Personally, I'm sticking with Lincoln's repeater. It fits my character better. I use stealth a lot, and it fits the long/medium long range sniping niche pretty well. Plus, I love using it on Slavers, just for the hell of it (Similarly, I'm going to massacre Andale cannibals using Jack). Though, since I went Rambo on Paradise Falls, Lincoln's Memorial, and the Pitt Raiders, their aren't many left.R3dflag 06:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I can confirm this exists, I got it after completing the quest "The Velvet Curtain"

According to the article, this does 45 damage per shot compared to 50 for Lincoln's Repeater. I know the "in-game" DAM is listed as 52 but that can sometimes be misleading. Can anyone confirm which weapon does the most damage per shot? Otherwise I'll do it myself once I get it. Regardless though, the 0.25 spread does suggest that it's less accurate (both in and outside of VATS) than the Repeater. 82.117.105.145 15:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I figured out that the max ATK for the Lever-Action Rifle is 45, Backwater Rifle is at 50, while the Lincoln's Repeater is at 55. Hammer Bro. Mike 15:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * bah humbug! Lincoln's repeater still owns this gun, more damage, good for sniping(it has no scope but always hits where you aim)not to mention operation anchorage infinite ammo glitch+the pitts ammo press makes Lincoln's have no downside! i have about 3m 44 cal ammo, and hunting rifles are practically used to build everything in the wasteland(being sarcastic to depict how common they are) i know its easy enough to find lever action rifles but you cant pick them up as you go in case you want to randomly repair it, overall ghoul ecology/superior defender+Lincoln's repeater is ftw, long live honest Abe!!Toolazytomakeaaccount 02:09, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Crit chance
Anyone else notice that this gun seems to have a MUCH higher crit chance than most other small guns? I have average luck and about 75% of my VATS shots with this weapon are crits WouldYouKindly 23:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Lincoln's rolling in his grave, knowing that his gun isn't as good as some Communist's. Nitpicker of the Wastes 23:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just like the Vault Dweller is rolling in his grave because of his portrayal in fallout brotherhood of stool Butter 16:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Can I just say this weapon is absolutely lethal in the hands of someone with Better Criticals, Finesse and high Luck (like myself). 10 Luck actually. Cuts through most enemies with ease, just disappointed by slightly less damage and zero spread compared to Lincoln's Repeater. Vault01 22:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'll second that. This gun blew my mind after I used it for the first time. The Victory Rifle was little better than whacking those goddamn hillbillies with a stick for me, even at almost perfect condition, but once I cracked this sucker out and started unloading a few rounds into their faces I couldn't believe how powerful it was. In fact, the only time I've used the VR since I picked this rifle up was to use the scope for some long-distance viewing rather than actual combat. If it weren't for the reload time, I would say it's overpowered but, right now, it's really pushin' it. Blutteufel 04:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Lincolns vs Backwater
Who really cares? Just use the onr you like best. Fat Man Spoon 22:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I love both...i use the BW For sneak attacks and close range vats frenzies,whereas the LR wil now be used for long distance fights and fights that i want to leave quickly Butter 16:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I have tested and verified that Lincoln's Repeater has better accuracy in V.A.T.S. I see no reason not to mention this in the comparison.

Weapons with a higher spread are less accurate in VATS. --LordVukodlak 20:42, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Backwater is that pimp. Backwater >>>>> Lincoln's Repeater. Plus getting more Lever Action Rifles for repair gives me an excuse to go back to Point Lookout and visit mah boi Kenny. V.A.T.S. addict 03:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

If you're referring to the section on the page, it's just so that people can make the decision easier.--Master of cheeZ 01:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

With an 18% MDPS, Lincoln's Repeater deals on average 77 dmg/shot, and the Backwater deals on average 105.75 dmg/shot. So the repeater only has it beat in terms of AP, and spread (repair means nothing to me thanks to Alien Epoxy, and the Ammo Press makes the .44 rounds common) 68.192.9.90 01:08, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

If you are going for a sneak build, you might as well use the Scoped Gauss Rifle. While it can only fire one shot from one MCF, the time to reload is well within the time enemies go from cautious to unaware, while still dealing more damage than Lincoln's Repeater. Outside sneaking, the Backwater Rifle has the advantage of 5 out of 10 shot (with a base 10% crit) to deal a crit, where as the Repeater would deal 2 out 10 crits. Also, the Repeater renders accuracy perks less useful due to a zero spread, something the Backwater takes serious advantage from (especially head shots). Besides, it would suck if I were to Sneak Crit with the Repeater, target does not die and becomes aware, my next shot wouldnt kill the target because its crit chance is lower. Now imagine a 15% or 18% base chance to crit (75%-90% for the Backwater, against 30%-36% for the Repeater). With and 18% base crit chance almost all shots from the Backwater would crit sneakless. Added to that, the AP cost can easily be neglected with Grim Reaper's Sprint. --Radnus 81.205.186.16 00:58, March 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * psh, i use a sneak build(sta armor)and always get a critical regardless of the weapon, so lincoln's wins against backwater for me, as ive said in many articlesToolazytomakeaaccount 14:27, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Backwater sucks
I don't know if anyone relized this but, other than the fact that it has more range, a normal 10mm SMG is way better than the backwater rifle. At least for me it is. Just my opinion.--Lethal Hate 22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to hear your reasons for making such a statement.Blutteufel 04:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's true. With Bloody Mess, Superior Defender, and Ghoul Ecology, and with both weapons fully repaired, the normal 10 mm SMG does 95 Damage per second. The Backwater Rifle does less than 70 damage per shot (I'm not sure of the exact number, my 360 is broken). So if all the shots connect, then, yes, the 10 mm SMG does more damage than the Backwater Rifle.Hk37 03:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Um, no. The SMG doesn't do 95 damage per shot, it does about 7. Nitty 03:23, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed,the damage displayed is wrong,Backwater RIfle is superior. Captain TattyBoJangles Care to talk? 15:52, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Nitty is correct, however the fire rate of the SMG is Way higher then the Backwater Rifle. However, the back water rifle does WAY more dammage. I still think the Backwater Rifle is best.Vault 815 05:43, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Alien Epoxy
Maybe someone should update the article with the new DLC item "Alien Epoxy". It eliminates the need to get lever-action rifles. TheLoneWanderer2 20:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC) da

Backwater VATS Bloopers?
I've found quite a couple times that while I was using VATS with the Backwater Rifle, I've had rather humourous effects on those I've VATS'd. At close range, a fatal shot anywhere will make the VATS-ee go flying (not just his brains but the entire body), Raiders, Outcasts, Fawkes, everybody seems to get significant air time with Backwater Rifle w/ VATS Pastafarianist 00:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

YOU SHOT FAWKES??? how many shots did it take to kill that living tank?(seriously, give fawkes a missle launcher and see the resemblance)

Backwater Rifle vs Lincoln's Repeater

 * Lincoln's Repeater fires .44 Magnum rounds instead of 10mm rounds, making ammo for it much more rare.


 * Lincoln's Repeater has a larger magazine capacity, 15 compared to 10.


 * Lincoln's Repeater uses less AP per shot in V.A.T.S., 25 compared to 30.


 * Lincoln's Repeater is slightly less durable at 600 to Backwater Rifle's 700 health.


 * Lincoln's Repeater can be repaired with commonly available Hunting Rifles, where the Backwater can only be repaired with rare Lever-Action Rifles.


 * Lincoln's Repeater has a 0.0 spread while Backwater Rifle has a 0.25 spread. In other words, at 100 small guns, Lincoln's Repeater hits exactly where you aim it and this weapon hits almost where you aim it. This also makes the Repeater more accurate in V.A.T.S.


 * Lincoln's Repeater has a 2x critical multiplier, whereas the Backwater Rifle has a massive 5x multiplier. That means, at perfect condition, with a high Luck, Finesse, and Better Criticals, the Backwater will do much more damage than the Repeater. However, the Repeater does more damage while [HIDDEN] since a Sneak Attack Critical is guaranteed.

--Kingclyde 19:21, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Rate of Fire
Why rof revert? I just added correct rof values for a few weapons based on Attacks Shot/Sec value (from GECK). Also based on same work done by KnightNapier earlier this day for all small guns in base game (so I though it was ok to help a bit and add those values for a few more weapons). It is also based on earlier discussion on weapon template with Porter21, so I though it was OK (since KnightNapier values weren't reverted by anybody). P22 10:52, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess it's the result of the parameter name not making clear what should be filled in. Probably Kingclyde checked your change against "fire rate" and reverted because it didn't match.


 * I'm currently working on changing the template according to our discussion; I'll make sure the parameters are named according to what GECK value they correspond to. Likely "rof" will be canned completely and replaced with "firerate" and "attackshots/sec". -- Porter21 (talk) 11:13, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, all hold on of doing anything, until new template gets released. P22 11:14, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I did. Is there another field I'm not seeing? I didn't fix his because I needed shut eye. Plus the edits you made are on my watched pages list.--Kingclyde 23:56, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

i tested it
i went to a neutral place(point lookout since enemy's drop hunting rifle's and lever action rifles) took both guns at 100% condition,my perks are ghoul ecology, superior defender, and bloody mess+100 small guns, in a neutral area such as that both are fairly easy to repair and since i have huge quantity's of both ammo i feel it doesn't matter if i consider the rarer ammo for Lincoln's, through extensive testing(went over almost the entire island killing everything that moved) in the end due to the more damage Lincoln's repeater won because double damage from the critical makes it do about 10 more dmg, regardless both were almost exactly identical, the only reason i still prefer Lincoln's is because its slightly more damage and hits where you aim it, so essentially both weapons are epic, especially in an area where there are lots of repair parts for both, so in the end they are epic guns, so use whatever you like the most, cause both are powerful.Toolazytomakeaaccount 18:19, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * edit-and i didnt take in to account the critical difference since i use STA and have 100 sneak+silent running, i always get critical so i could care less wich one crit's moreToolazytomakeaaccount 18:22, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

VATS Accuracy
Just a quick question regarding the rifle's accuracy. In VATS I'm getting low values (13-26%) at close range where even my chinese assault rifle is giving me high values(around 36-60%). Following through with the shot seems to coroborate these values (the ghoul ecology and superior defender perks make the chinese rifle chew through things :D). However when i use the backwater rifle in first person mode accuracy is extremely good, with consistant (80%+) headshots at maximal range (when creepers' heads are just visible in the fog: shooting at silhouettes).

Is there a difference in and out of VATS? --130.95.128.51 11:32, October 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * ohhh yeh, theres a huge difference when using weapons from normal shooting to using vats, like, say if your using lincoln's repeater(i chose this reference due to its 0% spread) when you zoom and aim, then pull the trigger with lincoln's it always goes where you aim, never to the right or left, buuuut when using vats there are percentages, and that means that vats is considerably less accurate at long range, zoom in shot, hits head if aimed at head-equals death immediately, yet with vats,locked on to head, activate fire trigger-like, a 20% chance that it hits, so yes when using long range it is strongly suggested you DONT use vats, with most weapons your better off just aiming and pulling the triggerToolazytomakeaaccount 19:58, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

In defense of the Backwater
Alright, it seems people think Lincoln's Repeater is better b/c it does an extra 5 damage per shot and has +5 critical damage, but I'm here to tell you why the backwater still holds it own:


 * On very hard difficulty, neither can one hit kill tougher enemies, so the increased sneak attack damage is only a slight bonus for the repeater


 * With Alien Epoxy, repairs become less of a hassle for the backwater


 * For certain values of AP, the backwater and repeater can get off the same number of shots (ie 120, both get off 4 shots)


 * The backwater will, with the right perks, critical 9 out of 10 shots (100% in VATS) whereas the repeater will only critical 36% (51%) of the time. This means it will have a higher DPS than the repeater

So, the backwater still proves a viable weapon, just as a reference for anyone who thinks the backwater is objectively worse than the repeater; the only major advantage the repeater has is reduced spread, but with Concentrated Fire and the rest of the VATS perks, you can usually get a high to hit % 98.249.221.165 03:30, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * very valid point, buuuuut nah, Lincoln's still wins, from a decent distance loudness is no matter since an enemy cant get your exact location, that is of coarse, with STA armor, of coarse with STA armor there is no downside to any weapon if it does the most damage and is a good distance away, gauss rifle might as well sound like a cricket chirping, lol...but yeh, Lincoln still holds the #1 trophy, if used correctly with the right strategy, like say...STA armor and zooming so that target is barely visible, makes it win due to they cant even find ya, viva la Lincoln's Repeater!!!Toolazytomakeaaccount 03:38, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * You could just use the Perforator and never be detected. I find that a bit boring though, I personally don't use either too much, but it just seemed that people weren't giving the backwater a chance, so I decided to. I couldn't care less which you use. I like the repeater better for massacring Paradise Falls, of course 68.192.9.90 00:12, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * ive realized i was taking a too gung-ho stand against backwater rifle, ive mentioned this in my backwater vrs lincoln's repeater forum but i figure i should mention here, its obvious these 2 guns are made to accommodate eachother, lincoln's is good to hit a target with a sneak attack, more damage, then if they survive switch to backwater for more critical chance, said combo uses less 44 cal ammo but keeps backwater very much involved, plus add alien epoxy and you can repair both, its a win win, right?Toolazytomakeaaccount 00:38, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... that's not a bad idea, though I have access to the Ammo Press and have OVER 9000 .44 rounds, so conserving them is not an issue. 68.192.9.90 01:13, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * lol, yeh but for some getting 44 ammo is still a problem, idk why but eh well, regardless this fix's the problems people have with lincoln's for the most part, like if u have 200 44 magnum ammo and 10k 10mm ammo, its obvious this combo is for you since u get essentially, 200 kills, and if you miss after first shot with lincoln's, ull be in caution at least, so still will need more damage in long run, reminds me of the wazer wifle/A3-21's plasma rifle combo, both are good and very different, together make a effective combo.Toolazytomakeaaccount 02:57, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally don't use A3-21's Plasma Rifle outside of VATS unless in close range because of that damn slow green goey ball 68.192.9.90 23:31, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * well yeh but i mean they're an moderately effective combo, the laser rifle is good for a critical hit and the A3-21 plasma rifle for basic firing, its a basic combo..kinda like a shotgun and a sniper rifle, long distance+very short distance, except maybe change it up, victory rifle+terrible shotgun, i should test out this combo....Toolazytomakeaaccount 23:39, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Try the shotty/sniper from Operation: Anchorage, they're both nearly indestructable and don't look rusty like the rest of the weapons in the CW 68.192.9.90 04:33, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Disappearing Backwater?
Ok, so I went to the Pitt today for the first time in months, and everything was fine, but when I returned, I realized my Backwater had disappeared. This isn't new to me, Ol' Painless and Vengeance have both disappeared out of my inventory when I've traveled from to the DLC locations and back. The hunting rifle when I went to Point Lookout, and Vengeance when I woke up in Broken Steel. Can someone offer an explanation or is this a new bug?

Inappropriate or misleading statements.
I’ve edited the Behind the scenes section of the page. Whereas “Backwater” can refer to a region that is “Isolated and backward” to infer that inbreeding/incest is a common occurrence in such places is nothing more than ignorant racial stereotyping. Also I’m removing the following statement as well.


 * This weapon could also be a reference to a rifle that has been "backwatered" which means that if there is a liquid source in the barrel of a rifle, the gunpowder would mix in with the water, resulting in the cartridge being unable to fire and rendering the weapon temporarily useless.

The weapon is obviously NOT in reference to any such condition. It has no history of misfiring, in fact no weapons in Fallout 3 seem to suffer any ill effect when exposed to water. This statement is irrelevant and has no place on the main article page. ReapTheChaos 21:20, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * good edits. I concur.Thanks--Gothemasticator 21:24, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's amazing what people occasionally come up with in the "Behind the scenes" sections :) -- Porter21 (talk) 21:24, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Please do remember this facts.
1: It uses 10mm rounds, which are the most likely the most common ammo in the wasteland.

2: It is very effective aginst super mutients and robots.

3: It can be only by lever-action rifles, but lever-action can be easly obained be killing swampfolk( Creepers, 400hp/scrapper, 150hp/brawler, 250hp)

Delta128

Not rare
Lever action rifles arn't rare, people sell them and swampfolk carry them, there uncommon, not rare Zachariah Zuan 22:35, May 25, 2010 (UTC)